Revealing Simultaneous Relationship in Time

[Josiah]

Vinnie's all over the implied stuff. Odd groupings in even time are his forte

With all this being said, why did Mark get such a bad treatment for writing it out in Sibelius and uploading it here?

Probably for ridiculously over complicating a relatively simply concept, and doing it in such a manor that belays some great discovery or that secret has been revealed for all to behold.

[deseipel]

here's the breakdown for me: I love this type of stuff, I wish more people posted stuff like this; it's cool to see the interest. But let's not overcomplicate it. I'm sure I didn't help trying to understand what he was saying.

on top of everything, it's just 4 half notes in the space of 5 half notes. That's the "polyrhythm". Then by subdividing it down to 1/8th notes and keeping the accent, it turns to a cross rhythm. That's it. No need to think of it in "poly-meters" or interdimensional mumbo jumbo. Because I'm not sure thinking of it as polymetric would help anyone.

You can look at it a million different ways, but that should be left up to the performer. More importantly, I'm not sure that he spoke of the 'effect' of this type of thing. That's the magic of this type of stuff.

[DeeP_FRieD]

Well, if it was just a terminology and clarity issue, I think you still owe him an apology... especially you Josiah.

[Josiah]

Perhaps so, and for that I apologize.

The internet is disconnected to reality and unfortunately, unlike real life, you can't just be like "Oh that's cool. Show me." and everything either grinds to a halt or they got their stuff together. You know, actual accountability of teaching concepts.

When people do the whole "SECRET DRUMMING REVEALED!!!" or whatever, and then it's some crazy jeff indyke nonsense. It's just BS. Rhythm's not that hard, there are no secrets. And all of this has already been dissected in great detail in numerous dvd's and books, by even the very players who do it.

Perhaps the approach is bad but:

"poly-metric/rhythm 5 stroke roll on all 8ths in 4/4."

It's still taking something very approachable and polluting it with nonsense. Is that a better way to say it?

Plus, really if you have all these huge complicated explanations of a given concept, these worked up examples and illustrations, but you can't execute what you're talking about - that's bullshit. Plain as can be. Don't mean to be insulting, just calling it how I see it.

Forums are as close to peer review as we can get. Perhaps we could all use better language in our reviews - but none the less it comes down too. Interesting theory, where's the proof?

[Old Pit Guy]

Whew, what a read. One thing's for sure, the irony needs a bigger ladle.

[deseipel]

Well, if it was just a terminology and clarity issue, I think you still owe him an apology... especially you Josiah.

Hey I'm just looking for clarity and (i thought) that's pretty clear in my comments and suggestions. If it seems super-charged, then I'm sorry.

[matthughen]

Well, if it was just a terminology and clarity issue, I think you still owe him an apology... especially you Josiah.

Hey I'm just looking for clarity and (i thought) that's pretty clear in my comments and suggestions. If it seems super-charged, then I'm sorry.

I dont think anyone owes him an apology. He wrote his headstone when he criticized those who justifiably asked for a demonstration or example for the sake of clarification. He also had no sense of humor . . . this was a living breathing example of Janns Heneman's Polynesian Nightmare. He has been 'drummed' out of other forums and his threads deleted for being a complete tool, a pattern he repeated here. He should feel lucky that he has 9+ pages of people taking him seriously at HOD. No other place let him get so far . . .

[Mark Levine]

Perhaps so, and for that I apologize.

The internet is disconnected to reality and unfortunately, unlike real life, you can't just be like "Oh that's cool. Show me." and everything either grinds to a halt or they got their stuff together. You know, actual accountability of teaching concepts.

When people do the whole "SECRET DRUMMING REVEALED!!!" or whatever, and then it's some crazy jeff indyke nonsense. It's just BS. Rhythm's not that hard, there are no secrets. And all of this has already been dissected in great detail in numerous dvd's and books, by even the very players who do it.

Perhaps the approach is bad but:

"poly-metric/rhythm 5 stroke roll on all 8ths in 4/4."

It's still taking something very approachable and polluting it with nonsense. Is that a better way to say it?

Plus, really if you have all these huge complicated explanations of a given concept, these worked up examples and illustrations, but you can't execute what you're talking about - that's bullshit. Plain as can be. Don't mean to be insulting, just calling it how I see it.

Forums are as close to peer review as we can get. Perhaps we could all use better language in our reviews - but none the less it comes down too. Interesting theory, where's the proof?

Josiah,
Secret Drumming Revealed? Where did that come from? Not from me.

Secrecy does not have to be part of a code. I never referenced anywhere at anytime "secrets, or secrecy".
A code can be a system of symbols, numbers, letters etc, that CAN BE substituted for other symbols, numbers, letters, etc.

It is accurate for me to think of musical notation as a symbol notation for numbers, and here is an example to consider:
A band leader counts a lead in to a song. 1 2 1 2 3 4.
The first 1 2 correlates to the half note placement in time. The 1 2 3 4 correlates to the quarter note placement in time. NO notation their, ONLY NUMBERS. Without the symbols, the underlying numerical code stands on its own. Accurately.

"all of this has already been dissected in great detail in numerous dvd's and books, by even the very players who do it".

Can you tell me specifically, Name the numerous books and dvds that discuss/diagram in detail, the polyrhythmic relationship, (or outside ratio), between the accent and metronomes pulse, connected to the roll strokes, or other scales and arpeggios of drumming. The book title is what?
I am not saying it does not exist, i am asking you for the ones you know of. You are stating it as fact. You must have proof.

All the drum books that you know of are written by drummers who play rhythmic phrases. Can you name the drum books, or pdfs, that use the recognized musical symbol (a slur sign, or PHRASE MARK), to identify those rhythmic phrases being played heard and felt?

"Polluting it with nonsense"?
I played a 5 stroke roll in a musical context on continuous 8th notes, modulating over a half note and whole note pulse.
Afterwards, i thought, what relationship is occurring simultaneously?

That is what this is about. Revealing simultaneous relationship in time. What rhythmic realities actually occurred in a real time playing context. Separating them, identifying them, and synthesizing them into their complex whole. Constructing, deconstructing and reconstructing it.

"huge complicated explanations of a given concept, these worked up examples and illustrations, but you can't execute what you're talking about - that's bullshit".

It is impossible to please everybody. I have hundreds of emails thanking me for these explanations and illustrations.

Look, for Deseipel, the polymeter reference was not helpful and irrelevant. He would avoid it completely.
Yet others, have the opposite reaction, pointing to it as something they heard about but didn't quite understand.
For them it worked.

The title of the post. Sure, it could have been better. It is not inaccurate, and that is what matters to me.
I had to come up with something. If it was inaccurate then i would be bothered.

"Worked up examples and illustrations".
You believe every thing i have posted from that Vinne type rhythm to this post is all intellectualized. Conceived in the mind only. You conclude i can't execute any of this. You have no proof of that, but you voice your conclusion. Not scientific at all.

I do not post sound files and videos because that is not what i produce, or have to share.
I am a file writer, a code writer, who plays drums.
I was fortunate to have studied with Mr. Richard Wison, who taught half the effort with twice the speed. You do not have to be a DCI/Rudiment guy to have been taught floors, balances, and fulcrums, based upon the conclusions of Archimedes, Galileo, and Issac Newton-using the acceleration of gravity and the theroy of mass. Richard was one of Vinnie's teachers. Vinnie was quoted in the article written by Robyn flans (Modern DRUMMER April 1996).

I play music with friends. What i do is play, Feeling it first (hearing it), and then the intellect is used for the notation of it (seeing it). Never the other way around. If rhythm is intellectually worked out without emotion and feeling, in my opinion, it is not musical, does not groove, is awkward and to quote you B.S. Ideas such as that Vinnie type rhythm with its underlying numerical code revealed, (i know you saw it and that is why i am mentioning it), occurred in a musical context. A moment in time, causing a spontaneous reaction to occur by what is being heard and felt. At a later time i come back to it with my intellect to figure out what it was.

Many, if not most drummers at this forum are Phenomenal Drumming Masters. Artists with Awesome Talent.
I am not a professional drummer/entertainer in that sense. I am not in recording studios having produced numerous recorded examples to draw from. I write files that i play and post those. That is what i have to share.

The education productions of rhythmschool will have sound files/video. I am a file writer for rhythmschool.com

The proof of everything i have posted is heard and seen in the recordings and videos of all the incredible drummers at this forum. I'm inspired by their innovative playing of simultaneous relationships.

The question i think you should ask yourself is, Can you identify it?
If you can't hear it in their playing, you certainly will not hear it in mine.

[Josiah]

The proof of everything i have posted is heard and seen in the recordings and videos of all the incredible drummers at this forum. I'm inspired by their innovative playing of simultaneous relationships.

The question i think you should ask yourself is, Can you identify it?
If you can't hear it in their playing, you certainly will not hear it in mine.

Wow. So if someone doesn't already know what's going on, you shouldn't demonstrate it to them.


Humor me for a moment....


I can't read. Your explanations have lost meaning to me in notation. I need context to learn. I learn best with auditory examples.

Please teach me your concepts in context, on a drum set, to a metronome. Then I can follow along with your notation, while listening to what you play, to fully grasp the concepts you are talking about.

Surely this isn't beyond you, every great drum book comes with audio CDs and even more drum DVDs with notation. The notation I have now, printed out right here. But I just can't seem to make sense of what's going on, can't you give me at least one example?
Slow things down so I can understand thoroughly what you are trying to explain while grasping the totality of the concept as it's used in context. Please? I'm just trying to learn....

[Mark Levine]

The proof of everything i have posted is heard and seen in the recordings and videos of all the incredible drummers at this forum. I'm inspired by their innovative playing of simultaneous relationships.

The question i think you should ask yourself is, Can you identify it?
If you can't hear it in their playing, you certainly will not hear it in mine.

Wow. So if someone doesn't already know what's going on, you shouldn't demonstrate it to them.


Humor me for a moment....


I can't read. Your explanations have lost meaning to me in notation. I need context to learn. I learn best with auditory examples.

Please teach me your concepts in context, on a drum set, to a metronome. Then I can follow along with your notation, while listening to what you play, to fully grasp the concepts you are talking about.

Surely this isn't beyond you, every great drum book comes with audio CDs and even more drum DVDs with notation. The notation I have now, printed out right here. But I just can't seem to make sense of what's going on, can't you give me at least one example?
Slow things down so I can understand thoroughly what you are trying to explain while grasping the totality of the concept as it's used in context. Please? I'm just trying to learn....

Josiah,
"Wow. So if someone doesn't already know what's going on, you shouldn't demonstrate it to them".

Those are your words not mine. You are not quoting me. I was writing to you in response to your comments.
Not "someone or anyone else". What i am doing does not resonate with you in anyway. Its cool. Lets agree to disagree.
It is nothing personal. Only the best to you Josiah.