The age old "chops vs groove" debate

[DSOP]

Try Dinosaur BBQ, Rochester, NY lol

Really? Cool, good to know. I used to gig in Rochester at the Penny Arcade, near that ice-cream place (Abbot's?).

As far as groove and chops go, I think my chops are better some days than others, but my "groove", or feel, gets better and better. Probably because I spend more playing time playing time. There's no substitute for experience. And no substitute for meat cooked over an open flame.

[Gaddabout]

Most anyone can get a pilot's license, but very few will ever have the privelege of flying an F-16. Most career pilots can land an Airbus A230 on any U.S. runway under normal weather conditions in their sleep, but a small number of them could land a loaded one on the Hudson River at safe landing speeds after having engines struck by geese. Generally speaking, you're everyday passengers hope to never need to have to witness their pilots' skills being tested -- in fact the less aware you are of the pilot flying the plane the better the experience for most people --- but you're sure thankful for the elite pilots when you do need them.

And in my experience, F16 pilots are a-holes.

[Ardent15]

Most anyone can get a pilot's license, but very few will ever have the privelege of flying an F-16. Most career pilots can land an Airbus A230 on any U.S. runway under normal weather conditions in their sleep, but a small number of them could land a loaded one on the Hudson River at safe landing speeds after having engines struck by geese. Generally speaking, you're everyday passengers hope to never need to have to witness their pilots' skills being tested -- in fact the less aware you are of the pilot flying the plane the better the experience for most people --- but you're sure thankful for the elite pilots when you do need them.

And in my experience, F16 pilots are a-holes.

Excellent analogy, my friend.

And there are F-14 and F-16 pilots who become 747 pilots. Airline pilots=bus driver in the sky. Total blue-collar job.

[Jean-Paul]

Maybe it's bit of a day after the fair since we are talking F-16's and all like 2-3 Stealth pilots in particular here, but IMO chops is your ABC. With your ABC you are able to make words. With words you can phrase. With phrases you can communicate. And communication leads to conversations, stories, fights and sometimes non (verbal) communication. I have integrated that in my playing a lot

Then we are talking about personality. The Stealth pilot ace VC is able to wear different hats, country, latin, jazz, fusion, pop and rock. When he plays pop the man plays pop. And still you know it's him. Because he understands the musical requirements of a particular style and still throws in some style-wise-appropriate Vinnie-isms. Other hero's don't think like him and you won't hear them play similar phrases at the same time although the master that style too.

Groove is a word I don't necessarily like. I like feel or swing better altough easily confused with jazz. And you don't have to have chops to swing. Stevie Wonder swings his ass of but does he have chops? Jim Keltner was mentioned earlier and there are more. All feel good drummers. Porcardo did have chops BTW. Groove / feel / swing is more important than chops but not an excuse to not practice your rudiments as I tell my students.

[Pocketplayer]

We drummers are a lot like elementary students, we think we need to know every subject well. Reality ain't that way at all. Imo, search your soul and ask what music genre you are most passionate about. Consume this library of music. All technique/chops are filtered through the application phase or 'end in mind.'

I get the jobbing drummer -playing wedding gigs- part of the course. I remember a drum teacher who said he was done with pop gigs and it was all jazz all the time. He considered the cost, managed an apartment building in Burbank to take care of his family housing needs, and hooked up with Jeff Hamilton in Glendale for private lessons.

I love Vinnie like the rest, but the guy's a freak and not the model to strive for. He GIGS with more musical styles than a cat has lives. More power to him. Gadd was in a similar career path. Porcaro is the better model to pattern after. Better yet, maybe our own robhaerr with his band The Ravelers is where most of us drummers land or Dr Homes with Altered. Can Steve play an Earth, Wind, and Fire gig? Yeah. Will he? Doesn't seem to be on the horizon in the near future. I'd like to see this show however!

Listening to some Patton Oswald stand-up while typing this...probably needed to bounce out some time ago.

[bensdrums]

Imo, search your soul and ask what music genre you are most passionate about. Consume this library of music. All technique/chops are filtered through the application phase or 'end in mind.'

This is great advice... and something that took a while for me to realize. I think the chops vs. groove debate, sooner or later, will lead you to something like this.

There is so much to learn from so many sources when it comes to music, and by proxy (for us), drumming. But I've found that the most important things I've learned and continue to use have a lot more to do with making music than they have to do with drumming specifically. I guess this could be considered the "groove" side of the debate; although I wouldn't necessarily define it as "groove" per se.

Like Pocketplayer said, I think it's best to find what kind of music moves you, and then start seeking out the technique/chops/language (and also highly recommended... a qualified teacher of that style/genre that you can physically be in the room with to learn from) that is required to play it convincingly. Ideally, the spectrum of music that moves you inevitably gets wider and wider and you naturally seek out the language that applies to it, which in turn expands your drumming vocabulary. It's easy to get lost in the sea of literature and instructional products there are out there to make you a better drummer, and it all has it's merits. I've just found that finding true happiness playing this instrument (for me) really lies in the communal aspect of making music, and it often doesn't require drum pyrotechnics. On the other hand, the technical facility to communicate effectively is definitely required. Beyond that, it's all about how much you want to say, cultivating the vocabulary to do so, and (hopefully) at the same time cultivating the experiences that will teach you when to say a lot and when to say just a little.

I always loved this Jim Jarmusch quote, and found it to apply to my musical development as well:

Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is nonexistent. And don’t bother concealing your thievery — celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: “It’s not where you take things from — it’s where you take them to.”

[JohnDrum]

Most anyone can get a pilot's license, but very few will ever have the privelege of flying an F-16. Most career pilots can land an Airbus A230 on any U.S. runway under normal weather conditions in their sleep, but a small number of them could land a loaded one on the Hudson River at safe landing speeds after having engines struck by geese. Generally speaking, you're everyday passengers hope to never need to have to witness their pilots' skills being tested -- in fact the less aware you are of the pilot flying the plane the better the experience for most people --- but you're sure thankful for the elite pilots when you do need them.

And in my experience, F16 pilots are a-holes.

[john lamb]

Chops are great - they are tools that allow you to express yourself. Music (imo) should be a conversation amongst friends, even when every word is prescripted. Having more chops is like having a bigger vocabulary that allows you to participate more fully and express yourself more clearly.

Having the exact right words can make what you have to say more clear. Case in point, I got to see the Dalai Lama speak once. Every once in a while he'd ask his interpreter to explain, and whenever he did the interpreter would say the deepest stuff ever. Its not that the interpreter was the real brains, it was that the interpreter had the vocabulary to clearly express the thought wheareas the Dalai Lama doesn't.

However, we have all presumably had the experience of someone who forces out sesquipedalian and arcane words, like desanguinate, just to sound smarter. This doesn't facilitate communication, it facilitates you thinking that person is a twat. The same thing happens in music.

The problem comes with intent. Why are you playing music? But we all have the urge to impress, compete, cover up, etc etc. None of these things are music. There is no point where you can play fast enough to cover up the fact that the intent has been lost. The person who forces giant words everywhere is either trying to learn their vocabulary at your expense (don't practice on the stage!) or is trying to show off. It comes across just as easily in music as it does in conversation. A good conversation stays on topic, and the things that are said are relevant to not only the subject but what the other people in the conversation are saying, thinking and feeling. When the intent becomes self-centered, then the result is that your side of the conversation suffers. Its not the fault of chops, and I find it to be unrelated, at least, directly.

[Manu]

It's all a matter of context... Chops and groove should be relative to the music being played.. You couldn't hire Steve Gadd to play in a Death Metal band..
So for that music he wouldn't have the "Groove" needed.. Ha ha, that's using the term "Groove" differently than most of the people that would argue about groove vs chops would,..
In the end, pro's who are the best in their fields work on enough chops to fufill the musical requirements for the style.. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, and everyone has their physical limitations,.. or interest level in pushing their limitations.. But as long as they are serving the music, that's all that matters... Some styles of music require more chops than others...

I think the concern would be and the thing to judge players on is are they using their chops in the wrong context, are they serving the music ? does the music have room for it?. But then again music wouldn't have evolved if the Mersey Beat was the pinnacle of rock music..

Spot on. As much groove David Garibaldi might have, he wouldn't work in a death metal band, and viceversa. You gotta be good at what you do to get called, even folks like Vinnie who are chop monsters sometimes have to suppress their abilities to get some work doing simpler stuff. It's just a matter of being right for the job, there's not any better or worse music or musicians. Yeah, some people listen to Britney spears and enjoy it, music elitism is merely ego wankery of certain folks, but at the end of the day it's not relevant to the grander scheme of things.

[bclarkio]

Chops are a great thing to have.

To be able to lay down a Killer Groove is wonderful, as well.

Which is more important; which can you do without?

I think everyone has their own answer to that.

As a listener, neither 'style' ultimately determines whether I like a particular performance.

I call it 'Magic', and I can't really describe what it is, or how to quantify it.

Great players seem to be able to create Magic often, but to me what is amazing is that it can happen at any time, coming from a player of any level.

I believe that playing music is about being a person, the experiences and emotions a person has, and the expression of that.

Any person can pass that on to another through music; if the listener is particularly moved by it, then Magic happens.