Pirates

[DeeP_FRieD]

F*cking wow guys!?! It is absolutely shocking to me that you have such a low opinion of your audience, or would be audience.


First of all this whole thing about old guys calling new music crap is complete shit.
It's different, leave it at that.

Second, saying music isn't as important to young people as it was is another blatant misnomer. I would suspect after a statement like this that you have interviewed at least 200 people in a very structured way to come to this conclusion.

These attitudes are what keep guys playing in classic rock bands at dive bars instead of breaking off with new people and ideas.

This thread has gone from bashing pirates to slamming the current youth.... very fox news of you guys.

[dccollins]

People that are growing up now have unbelievably easy access to almost anything. I don't think that the youth don't think music is unimportant, they just take it for granted.

People say that technology connects people. I think it does the opposite. It has dumbed down communication. Also the perceived anonymity gives people a license to do or say things that normally wouldn't do in real life (threaten someone, steal music).

[deseipel]

Just because someone downloads a CD doesn't mean they would buy it.

AFter you consume a product or service, it's besides the point to conjecture what you would have done if you had NOT consumed the good or service.

And I think you agree with that, but I wasn't sure. This is the point most people miss. Music isn't something to sample and THEN decide you wouldn't have bought it. That's what's commonly called stealing.

Anyway, this is probably off topic on where this thread is ...

[littlegrooves]

How are people supposed to know the good from the bad, when there is so much bad music available?

Worse, when so much bad music is celebrated.

Define "bad music", if you will, because I always thought bad music was the kind that runs amok in your house and pees on your carpet.

[DSOP]

F*cking wow guys!?! It is absolutely shocking to me that you have such a low opinion of your audience, or would be audience.


First of all this whole thing about old guys calling new music crap is complete shit.
It's different, leave it at that.

Second, saying music isn't as important to young people as it was is another blatant misnomer. I would suspect after a statement like this that you have interviewed at least 200 people in a very structured way to come to this conclusion.

These attitudes are what keep guys playing in classic rock bands at dive bars instead of breaking off with new people and ideas.

Can something be perceived as important, and also as having no value simultaneously? If music really is that important to someone, wouldn't they be willing to pay something for it? And wouldn't they be willing to listen to it while focusing on it (instead of while working, or jogging, or grocery shopping)?

New music isn't any crappier than old crappy music. There's just more music than ever, so there's bound to be more crap. I think the bigger issue is that it's hard to find the better music. Radio started going downhill in the 80s, and is all but pointless now in that regard. That's probably the bigger reason for the endless parade of "classic" rock bands and nostalgia.

As for breaking off with new people and ideas, I can't say I've heard much of that in a long time. Everything I hear is extremely derivative, yet without the passion of the original inspiration. I honestly can't think of any artist or band that has less than five years of history that I care for.

And where is the motivation to really experiment and break new ground in music? If you can't find an outlet for it, and no one is going to hear it (let alone buy it), how can you get three or four people to commit to anything long term? It may be possible but it's highly unlikely and extremely difficult.

[Ardent15]

F*cking wow guys!?! It is absolutely shocking to me that you have such a low opinion of your audience, or would be audience.


First of all this whole thing about old guys calling new music crap is complete shit.
It's different, leave it at that.

Second, saying music isn't as important to young people as it was is another blatant misnomer. I would suspect after a statement like this that you have interviewed at least 200 people in a very structured way to come to this conclusion.

These attitudes are what keep guys playing in classic rock bands at dive bars instead of breaking off with new people and ideas.

This thread has gone from bashing pirates to slamming the current youth.... very fox news of you guys.

1. No one is going to remember 90% of the modern commercial radio artists in 10 years.

2. Music isn't that important to a lot of young people. It is to some, yes, but not many. And I'm one the "current youth", so yeah. I can say that from experience.

3. The attitudes of many people, from the record labels to the radio executives to the disturbing number of people who want all their music free (on THEIR side), are what keep talented musicians from being heard and keep talentless people popular.

[DeeP_FRieD]

Can something be perceived as important, and also as having no value simultaneously? If music really is that important to someone, wouldn't they be willing to pay something for it? And wouldn't they be willing to listen to it while focusing on it (instead of while working, or jogging, or grocery shopping)?

Well, the comment of mine that you quoted was not in regards to piracy but the previous generation's view of the newest since the topic veered in that direction. I do believe they should pay for it no doubt; however, I will not pontificate about how they will listen to it.
I jog and listen to music for two reasons.
1. Focusing on the music helps me alienate my senses, making the act of jogging much easier to do for long periods.
2. Since I'm focusing on it, I can really do a lot of listening homework ie. stuff I want to ape, tracks I might need to learn for a call gig, or dig on something I've never heard.

Should I not listen to music in my car? Or when I'm doing stuff around the house? Also, the way you perceive how people value stuff is totally intrinsic and is no way congruent with reality.

New music isn't any crappier than old crappy music. There's just more music than ever, so there's bound to be more crap. I think the bigger issue is that it's hard to find the better music. Radio started going downhill in the 80s, and is all but pointless now in that regard. That's probably the bigger reason for the endless parade of "classic" rock bands and nostalgia.

Mathematically, the ratio would stay the same if exposure vs. content were linearly related. One thing I know is impossible is that the crap would grow without the good stuff increasing as well.

Another question: How many bands never made it past the A&R chopping block in the old days that might have been considered great music. One will never know.

And, "the endless parade of "classic" rock bands and nostalgia" is perpetuated because people get stuck in there time/genre. In 50 years classic rock will be called indie rock and indie rock tribute bands will be playing Native American Casinos all over the country.

As for breaking off with new people and ideas, I can't say I've heard much of that in a long time. Everything I hear is extremely derivative, yet without the passion of the original inspiration. I honestly can't think of any artist or band that has less than five years of history that I care for.

First off this is purely opinion based and also limited to how much music you have exposed yourself to.

Second of all, all music us derivative in an incredible amount of ways. It has rhythm, most music follows the tempered scale, most music uses or at least stems from tertian harmony, instrumentation in the 20th century is very similar (especially prior to electronics), etc.. it's an evolution.

And where is the motivation to really experiment and break new ground in music? If you can't find an outlet for it, and no one is going to hear it (let alone buy it), how can you get three or four people to commit to anything long term? It may be possible but it's highly unlikely and extremely difficult.

This rings true no matter when. At least now you have a chance at distributing and producing it yourself when no one else will.

Music isn't that important to a lot of young people. It is to some, yes, but not many. And I'm one the "current youth", so yeah. I can say that from experience.

Ok, we have you're data, now you need to meet with an old person and compare. Also, if it is true, it might not be because of music.
Things that exist now that didn't not too long ago:
Computers
Internet
Video Games

These three things could be solely responsible for diminishing interest in music; however, I still believe it is important to young people, as I see inspiration in the young people I teach and enrollment is up most of the college and university music programs in my state.

Look it, my main point is that all of these things are a sign of the times. We are in a major technological revolution, such is why pirating is possible. We need to catch up to ourselves. Also, the generation war is so played out and obvious. Everyone here complaining about music now was receiving the same earful from their progenitors. If every generation was right, music would have died due to entropic failure long ago. It's the same thing as how the Armageddon is always coming. Louis Armstrong called bebop "incomprehensible". Do you think Charlie Parker, Coltrane and Miles Davis are incomprehensible? Well the generation before did and thought it was the end of jazz.

This negative outlook is what got me frantic to type. I hear the same thing hidden in all the arguments. Even if they're 100% right as the argument against piracy is, it exists in large or very very minute qualities but is still there nonetheless. What I hear is a very faint "I'm old, the world is changing, and I'm scared". I'm not saying anyone is old as it is a relative term, but the sentiment of not being young or fresh is there. No argument or declaration motivated by this fear of the unknown is good. Young people don't know, they just are reckless and don't think about it as much or are filled with inspiration and can't be troubled with it.

People argue like this over all types of art. The fact is, the artist makes their statement, and you take it or leave it. There is no grand score keeper.

Just be glad Harry Partch didn't catch on in a big way in the middle of the 20th century or all music would be micro-tonal.

[DSOP]

What I hear is a very faint "I'm old, the world is changing, and I'm scared". I'm not saying anyone is old as it is a relative term, but the sentiment of not being young or fresh is there. No argument or declaration motivated by this fear of the unknown is good. Young people don't know, they just are reckless and don't think about it as much or are filled with inspiration and can't be troubled with it.

I'm not that old. I welcome change. And I'm not scared.

I'm disappointed; Plain and simple.

You can pretend that it's just the same thing as before, but it isn't. Not even close. There are similarities, sure, but it's never been this bad, and it's sure going to get worse very fast.

Personally, I haven't given up yet, and I continue to work on new music. It's only because my soul won't let me stop though. I also do a lot of software development, so I know what is capable as far as getting a handle on the piracy. There is a large and powerful contingent that want things to remain as they are unfortunately.

I listen to music when I jog and drive my car too. But I miss having the time to just sit and listen to music. Maybe that's a big part of the problem too. Everyone is too busy with life to enjoy it.

Perhaps it's different in Arizona. I guess everyone there can't wait for the next release of their favorite artist to become available. All your students devote regular time to practice. The music scene has numerous bands working on awesome new music that has a cool new sound. There are clubs all over town where bands can try to get gigs and get paid for their efforts, or get a good % of ticket sales. Musicians can find gigs playing weddings etc. for a few hundred bucks a night every weekend. Local radio stations don't keep playing Boston, Van Halen and Eagles all day long.

[circh bustom]

I bet it is safe to say that most generations feel that whatever comes after them is watered down and crappy, or vile and offensive. From their own point of view, I would say they are not with out merit. But as a working musician that has also worked in a private cd shop for 5 years, this new generation of musicians and music lovers do not take music seriously. As for the musicians, they know that they can record a song fairly easily at home, upload it to the internet and potentially strike gold. No hammering it out in the clubs, no grassroots pounding the pavement campaigns. Think of all the jazz guys we love from the 50's and 60's playing for peanuts from 7pm till 4am with very little breaks. Why? because they needed it to breath. It was truly what they love to do. Nowadays its how much am I getting paid? Gee, how many songs do I have to play? What? How can I turn down even more? Not, who am I playing with? Who am I playing for? How about the studio guys that are left? Instead of hearing about the great hookup the musicians had we are hearing about guys cramming 4 sessions in in a day so they can pay the rent. We hear about double scale and bitching about drum cartage. Give me a break. How is anyone supposed to really respect that?And the record buying public? Forget them. The current generation is a joke. Even in the few years before the digital stronghold was evident. The last CD kids went crazy over was one of the last Limp Bizkit cd's. They dont know. They dont want to know. They love travis Barker because of his tshirts and his TV show. The few radio stations in South Jersey play the same 10 songs. A local band that has one of the best drummers in the area completely changed their set lists to appease the crowd that listens to these 10 songs over and over. All members of the band are really great on stage. They used to play a wide range of great music, now they play Billionaire and whatever Bruno Mars song is popular that week. Over and over and over. But they work all the time which is whats important right? if you said yes to that question, go fuck yourself. That is what has ruined the music industry. Blame piracy all you want. Just like Janek said in his post, use records as business cards so they come to your show and buy your merchandise and drinks for the club so you can come play again and make the club money and you keep "working". Music is an art, its your expression. I play drums cause I love the feel of the sticks in my hand hitting the heads. Its feeling the groove all over. No one talks about that in the younger generations, they all think that that shit is too corny.
Also, whatever happened to the mystique of music? I felt so much stronger about music when i had to hunt it down. Finding that nugget in the back of some shop in NYC or Philly got my pulse racing. The internet in general is really to blame for this lackluster view of music. Its too easy. I have close to 10,000 songs in my car at any given time on my iPod. I can stream almost any song recorded in the past 50 years on my PC/stereo at home. I do still buy product though, but only when the product deserves respect! Give me something more than 2 hit singles and 9 tracks of filler. Give me a whole record worth listening to. When CD's came out, bands all said " hey, now we have 73 minutes. Let's fill it!!" Not necesarilly. Quantity is more important than quality to most of the current generation. Give me a spectacular 40 minute album, not a so-so 70 minute album. As I said earlier, I am patiently waiting for Blu-Ray Audio, and I will gladly go out and purchase my favorite albums from the nearest store I can find. Also, piracy isnt new. i used to buy bootlegs on 8th st in the Village when I was in high school. Finally bands wised up and started recording all the shows and selling them at the show.
Artsists who take matters in there own hands mostly overcharge for their records themselves. Everyone knows what it costs to record an album and print CD's. Dont piss in my ear without even the courtesy of saying its raining. Stores charge 16.99 and artists charge 15$ at the merch tables. After spending minimum 50-95$ a ticket, another 15$ for a record that the artist may not even have taken seriously in the first place is out of the question. Both the artists and the record buying public allowed it to get to this place. the "pirates" just jumped at an opportunity. im in no way saying that piraters are correct but dont hate the playa, hate the game.

[DSOP]

Some very good points there ^