Another traditional grip question.

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Morgenthaler
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Re: Another traditional grip question.

Postby Morgenthaler » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:08 am

Phil T. wrote:
Morgenthaler wrote:Practice. (ok, lame answer, Jeppe)

This must be the 10th time I link to this video when the subject is trad grip,
but it does (from 1:28 to 2:20) showcase the meanest, most powerful trad grip left hand out there.
Some good close ups too for inspiration and guidance.



Not a trad grip question, but I've been working on snare drum stuff a whole lot lately. Next thing I need to work on are rudimental flam combinations, like the ones from 1:36 to 1:46 in this clip. Any suggestions for written material, YouTube examples, etc.?


I uploaded a (much) simpler video some 5 years ago. Basically for every shift from right to left
and vice versa, you flam the note. You can do this with any of the rudiments.
Virgil's incorporation of flams is at a ridiculous level. Mine are not, but may give you some ideas of your own.
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Re: Another traditional grip question.

Postby Matus » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:27 am

Phil T. wrote:
Morgenthaler wrote:Practice. (ok, lame answer, Jeppe)

This must be the 10th time I link to this video when the subject is trad grip,
but it does (from 1:28 to 2:20) showcase the meanest, most powerful trad grip left hand out there.
Some good close ups too for inspiration and guidance.



Not a trad grip question, but I've been working on snare drum stuff a whole lot lately. Next thing I need to work on are rudimental flam combinations, like the ones from 1:36 to 1:46 in this clip. Any suggestions for written material, YouTube examples, etc.?


I got a lot of snare vocabulary from Wilcoxon's "The all American drummer". And more specifically, that's a book Virgil mentioned back in the day as a main influence from his lessons with Philly joe. Once you get through the whole thing at a decent level, you see where a lot of his phrasings come from (in a very primitive shape, of course).
It's a great initiation book in a sense that it's not focused on competition level snare. The solos are very well written, melodic and use a whole lot of flam and accent combinations with great intention.
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Re: Another traditional grip question.

Postby Matus » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:36 am

As far as trad grip goes, I used it for many years at a very loud level and had no problems with it. Once I started singing, it kinda got in the way for playing some stuff comfortably with a mic in front of me, so I switched back to matched. I still use it a lot, but not for loud playing.
My advice would be relax, work a lot on your fundamentals and put a lot of time into it until you get even accents and backbeats (rimshot or not). Do a lot of snare stuff and on the kit go for the simplest exercises but get them to the highest level you can while always focusing on not receiving too much stress from the stick.
This is typical me back in 2008:
http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/imag ... f9b4/l.jpg
Oddly enough, I used to go through single ply heads all the time with trad grip. Main reason for switching to Emperors (and reviewing my stroke technique).
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Re: Another traditional grip question.

Postby Phil T. » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:20 am

Morgenthaler wrote:I uploaded a (much) simpler video some 5 years ago. Basically for every shift from right to left and vice versa, you flam the note. You can do this with any of the rudiments.


Thanks for the link, Jeppe! I'm going to check it out when I get back home. I do home-made flam exercises, alternating, non-alternating (i.e., stealing from the Tony Williams legacy), and combinations of the two, but they don't sound the same. I want some of what he was doing....

Matus wrote:I got a lot of snare vocabulary from Wilcoxon's "The all American drummer". And more specifically, that's a book Virgil mentioned back in the day as a main influence from his lessons with Philly joe. Once you get through the whole thing at a decent level, you see where a lot of his phrasings come from (in a very primitive shape, of course).
It's a great initiation book in a sense that it's not focused on competition level snare. The solos are very well written, melodic and use a whole lot of flam and accent combinations with great intention.


Thanks for the suggestion, Matus! I'm going to order that book today. I love flams.

EDIT: With Jeppe's example, I can approach the 1:36 - 1:46 section. As I hear it, in the main bit, Virgil is playing 16ths in 4/4 divided into groups of 7 + 7 + 6 + 7 + 5. The groups seven are further divided into 3 + 1 + 3. Working on it. I'll never be as good as Virgil, but I can be better than I am now. And will be better in couple of hours. Slow but steady, that's me. Thanks, JM. And thanks, Matus. The Wilcoxon book is in the mail.
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Re: Another traditional grip question.

Postby Morgenthaler » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:49 pm

Nice Phil!

You are obviously going to town on those flams.
They are a great tool to keep your hands in shape.
Onwards, upwards! :)
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Re: Another traditional grip question.

Postby Matus » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:02 am

That's the spirit! :)
Give it some time and Practice slow. Make sure your flams have enough space between the notes. Otherwise, they won't sound fat at all. Virgil's flams are a great example: the grace notes aren't really loud, but they are so ell placed it works anyway.
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Re: Another traditional grip question.

Postby bclarkio » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:31 am

Morgenthaler wrote:


I Pity the Fool that would try to attack Virgil while he has some sticks in his hands.

He's the Master of the Kung-Fu Grip, and Owns Killer Chops!
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Re: Another traditional grip question.

Postby renardvert » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:07 am

I just bought myself a pair of Virgil's signature sticks. My god, those sticks are BIG!! I've been trying out different sticks lately, I used Vic Firth 5A's for a long time. I tried the Vinnie's, the Tony's, the Todd's and a few others, I've been having fun with this process.
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Re: Another traditional grip question.

Postby gretsch-o-rama » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:41 am

I just switched to vic's 55A's after a lot of searching. I''ve used Vinnie's sig. for a long long time. Also I've got to encourage everyone to check out gergo's sausage. lol the album that is... Humor is very apparent in this album and the drumming is phenomenal! It even has that one astounding track he did in the studio for meinl(although a different take). Wrong thread I know...
"Ding ding da ding." Apollo teaching Rocky how to Jazz.
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Henry II
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Re: Another traditional grip question.

Postby Henry II » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:15 am

Morgenthaler wrote:
Henry II wrote:
Morgenthaler wrote:Practice. (ok, lame answer, Jeppe)

This must be the 10th time I link to this video when the subject is trad grip,
but it does (from 1:28 to 2:20) showcase the meanest, most powerful trad grip left hand out there.
Some good close ups too for inspiration and guidance.



I saw Virgil in a master class a few years ago. He said that he plays traditional because that's what he was taught. But, if he had it to do over again, he'd play matched. [Runs for cover].


That's true. I can verify that, so no need to run for cover ;)
(but that's kind of a different discussion altogether)


I thought it was germain to the OP's comment that he was considering going back to matched grip after years of apparent frustration with trad. Speaking for myself, I was originally taught that the future of drumming was matched grip and that trad was "obsolete." Note that my teachers all played trad.

Many decades later, I still wish I learned to play trad. IMO, it is a superior technique when the arm is bent and close to the body ie: playing on the snare. When you straighten your arm, it looses its benefits and matched works better. Over the years, on several occasions I've tried spending time getting up to speed with a trad grip and have met with limited success. But, I've never been able to execute with trad as well as with matched. Maybe I haven't invested enough time with it. But, the bottom line is that I am quite satisfied with my left hand technique with a matched grip, and IMO my practice time is better spent on musicianship rather than continuing to try to learn a new technique.

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