the moeller killer - will it make a difference ??

sejuba
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Re: the moeller killer - will it make a difference ??

Postby sejuba » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:58 pm

DeeP_FRieD wrote:I really think relying on certain techniques for speed can be a good and a bad thing. I spent a lot of time on the moeller technique, and when that push pull thing was getting a lot of heat, I worked on that every free second I had.

The techniques did wonderful things for me, but when I really started digging in this latin thing I've been working on, these two techniques started to fail me.

It was all the Mambo Bell and Mozambique's(the really one, not the Gadd/New York one) fault.

In a really cooking mambo, the bell part on one hand can get pretty quick and I was using my finger technique to get through, but I was constantly getting yelled at by my teacher about it.

The thing that was happening is that the clarity of the notes was changing between wrist strokes and finger strokes, making it not sound legit; also, it's really hard to use the finger technique when changing very quickly between the high and low part of the bell.

Once my wrists built up the speed and endurance, my shit started to pop; plus there was a bonus: it was much easier for me to throw a feel on it using the wrist.

Well, once I did this I went back through my playing and reevaluated everything from a consistency standpoint... I haven't abandoned the moeller stroke or finger techniques, but I only use them when necessary or if it is fitting.

On fast bop I use the push pull on the ride a lot... you can get that 5 stroke in one hand Tony thing going like that, and from watching slowed down videos, he seemed to use this too; although he used every finger not just the middle one for the pull.


thanx for chimin´ in.
here´s a video of a guy who tought the author of the moeller killer.
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deseipel
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Re: the moeller killer - will it make a difference ??

Postby deseipel » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:20 pm

YamahaPlayer wrote:
Kurtis wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYT77qnPqcI&feature=related

this guy has great hands. would like to see him pull this stuff off on a medium tension snare drum. those drum heads are so cranked up. makes for friendly rebound.



I'd have to disagree there.

Modern marching snares have less rebound then a drum set snare, they certainly don't have more.

A marching snare is about the same as your kitchen counter. Put your snare next to your counter and A/B them. You'll find very quickly that a harder surface does not equal more rebound.

In fact, a softer surface does. This much is clearly evident if you're ever played on an eKit with mesh heads. Or for that matter a gum rubber practice pad - hence the term "pad hands".



just so I'm clear, are you saying practice pads have more potential rebound vs. regular snare drum? I'd agree.
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DeeP_FRieD
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Re: the moeller killer - will it make a difference ??

Postby DeeP_FRieD » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:13 am

sejuba wrote:
DeeP_FRieD wrote:I really think relying on certain techniques for speed can be a good and a bad thing. I spent a lot of time on the moeller technique, and when that push pull thing was getting a lot of heat, I worked on that every free second I had.

The techniques did wonderful things for me, but when I really started digging in this latin thing I've been working on, these two techniques started to fail me.

It was all the Mambo Bell and Mozambique's(the really one, not the Gadd/New York one) fault.

In a really cooking mambo, the bell part on one hand can get pretty quick and I was using my finger technique to get through, but I was constantly getting yelled at by my teacher about it.

The thing that was happening is that the clarity of the notes was changing between wrist strokes and finger strokes, making it not sound legit; also, it's really hard to use the finger technique when changing very quickly between the high and low part of the bell.

Once my wrists built up the speed and endurance, my shit started to pop; plus there was a bonus: it was much easier for me to throw a feel on it using the wrist.

Well, once I did this I went back through my playing and reevaluated everything from a consistency standpoint... I haven't abandoned the moeller stroke or finger techniques, but I only use them when necessary or if it is fitting.

On fast bop I use the push pull on the ride a lot... you can get that 5 stroke in one hand Tony thing going like that, and from watching slowed down videos, he seemed to use this too; although he used every finger not just the middle one for the pull.


thanx for chimin´ in.
here´s a video of a guy who tought the author of the moeller killer.

Thanks for chimin´ in and a vid?

What's that have to do with my post? It's not like what that guy is doing is impressive. In the keith carlock threads people were shredding him for doing the same thing all the time minus two singles...

Really, the dude the post is about is super fast, but there's no music. Speed or no speed doesn't mean gig or no gig. It's feel and musicality... all which is not present in most of this shit.
sejuba
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Re: the moeller killer - will it make a difference ??

Postby sejuba » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:47 am

What's that have to do with my post? It's not like what that guy is doing is impressive. In the keith carlock threads people were shredding him for doing the same thing all the time minus two singles...

Really, the dude the post is about is super fast, but there's no music. Speed or no speed doesn't mean gig or no gig. It's feel and musicality... all which is not present in most of this shit.


Not much, other than trying to use a single window to post two different things just for the sake of saving some space.

This thread is a bit misleading I must admit. I just wanted to talk about hand technique, thats all there is to it. I can care less about
metal drumming (no offense), or breaking the world record of single strokes. Of course it takes time and dedication to achieve
that, even a seven year old would have figured that one out.

Instead, describe what relaxation means to you. What does it feel like ? How have you achieved that and what were you doing
wrong before you got the hang of it.

Two very good friends of mine recently got a 3 hour private lesson with Kiko Freitas. These are guys with a very rich
afro cuban/brazilian drum vocabulary and an ever growing thurst for knowledge. They both have been playing professionally
for the last 7 years ( they are around 26-27yrs old) yet, they paid for a hand technique class.


Kiko made them raise their hands up to a 45o angle and have them dropped onto the snare (something like that...he
explained it over the phone). He made them do that for 20 minutes and said that a lot of the times Kiko felt
they weren´t as relaxed as they should´ve bla bla bla

Speed is important to a certain extent...and it shouldn´t be measured by a specific bpm but rather a musical
idea you have in your head that you´re unable to play due to a lack of proper technique or training.
YamahaPlayer
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Re: the moeller killer - will it make a difference ??

Postby YamahaPlayer » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:25 am

sejuba wrote:This thread is a bit misleading I must admit. I just wanted to talk about hand technique, thats all there is to it. I can care less about
metal drumming (no offense), or breaking the world record of single strokes. Of course it takes time and dedication to achieve
that, even a seven year old would have figured that one out.

Instead, describe what relaxation means to you. What does it feel like ? How have you achieved that and what were you doing
wrong before you got the hang of it.




Ah ok, controlled relaxation. How does it feel? Effortless.
You know when you see guys playing, and their faces get red, their neck is bulging out and they look they they are going to break in half? That's NOT relaxing.
I know when I'm playing very relaxed because it feels effortless, like I can play forever, glance over at the click and am nicely surprised at the marking being higher then it "felt".

There are lots of exercises to practice relaxed playing, that's why, every educator, player, etc advocates playing to a click smooth and RELAXED and only increasing the tempo when it doesn't cause you to tense up. Most people practice very tense, and practice doesn't make perfect - it makes permanent.

Honestly though, what you're asking is pushing the limits of text and not being in person. I would highly recommend you find a good martial arts studio (not that A.T.A., Karate, Etc crap), but a real one - if there are kids walking around with black belts, leave immediately.
Martial Arts is for the most part, the "peak" of relaxed power and movement, that's the entire operating principle behind speed, power and reaction time.
I would recommend finding a studio that teaches traditional Escrima. Not only are the weapons almost the exact same shape and size as drumsticks, but the majority of movements are nearly identical to swinging a stick around a drumset. If you want to learn how to move a 16" stick with your hand with extreme precision, power, control and speed - that's the art to study. I'm not saying devote your life to martial arts, but even 6 months will drastically change your playing.

Here's a couple drum exercises as well:

While playing accented 1 handed triplets on a pad, hold the non playing hand in the ready position while focusing on relaxing the hand, arm and shoulders. Switch hands every 4 bars. The key to this one is concentrating on relaxing that whole side of your body that is not playing, starting from the hand through the arm into the shoulder and on.
This can be applied to any 1 handed exercise, SVC Doubles, 8 on a Hand, etc, etc run with it.

Practice at very slow tempos to a click, with any given exercise/passage/solo/etc - maintain the most relaxed playing as possible. Gradually increase the click only when you can play at that tempo relaxed. If you feel your hands/wrists, etc tensing up - back it down a few notches and go again.

Learn to breathe properly - this is perhaps the most common non-technique issue that causes tensing up. Learn to regulate your breathing, it'll make a world of difference. Most people don't pay attention to breathing at all.
A good test is to be able to hold a conversation while playing drums, if speaking is too difficult coordination wise - then sing melody lines.
I believe part of learning to count out loud while playing inadvertently teaches this skill as I have noticed the breathing issue considerably more with students who did not learn to count out lout while playing.

And of course Posture. Posture is the number 1 issue I have observed drummers of all kinds, from seasoned to noob. People in general seem to have horrible posture. Having your body balanced, aligned and sitting upright makes all the difference in the world.
Get a big ol mirror from your local junk store and stick it where you can see what your back looks like while playing. Or video your posture, etc

Other then that, individual technique (how much fingers, wrist, power, finese) is kind of up to you, the sound you want to have as a drummer and the feel you want to have. I got a student who is missing an index finger, so his technique on that hand is different then the rest of us normal people. He still plays relaxed and with control.

Everyone has a different feel and touch, some very very light some very very heavy. Some loud, some soft. It's up to you.

If you wanted to practice speed for speeds sake, then you'd want to model your practice routine after athletics. If you want to practice for musicality and diversity, then you would model your practice routine to go after those goals.
Phil T.
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Re: the moeller killer - will it make a difference ??

Postby Phil T. » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:29 am

YamahaPlayer wrote:
Ah ok, controlled relaxation. How does it feel? Effortless.
You know when you see guys playing, and their faces get red, their neck is bulging out and they look they they are going to break in half? That's NOT relaxing.
I know when I'm playing very relaxed because it feels effortless, like I can play forever, glance over at the click and am nicely surprised at the marking being higher then it "felt".



Nicely put. I once spent a good month holding the sticks in the up position and learning to let them drop one by one and rebound back to the up position without tensing up or "helping" - on the way down or the way back up. I'd been playing for several years at that point and found it VERY difficult to let go and use pure momentum and rebound without "helping" or tensing. Great exercise though. Helped tremendously with relaxation.
Gaddabout
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Re: the moeller killer - will it make a difference ??

Postby Gaddabout » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:32 am

I'm a bit flustered by people sold out on systems like Moeller. To me, the Jojo video was the be-all, end-all on the subject because Jojo showed a dozen different ways to achieve what you want. The whole package works together -- fingers, wrists, forearms, arm motion. You can use one, some, or all of those to make it happen. To me, the only truly important thing is having a strong, consistent fulcrum so the stick pivots and you're not hurting yourself. Jojo never claimed one system better than the other. He put all of them on display with absolute perfect articulation. You can't top it.

But having said that, I've still been thinking about putting up a YouTube video called 7-Minute Hands or something to explain the only real secret to great single strokes: You can play as fast as your weakest hand can play it's role. If you're a right handed drummer wanting to play sextuplets at 144 BPM, your left hand must play eighth-note triplets at the same rate. IT'S THAT SIMPLE. ISOLATE AND REPEAT. THAT'S THE WORLD'S BIG SECRET ON GREAT HANDS.

The only thing holding anyone back is an ounce of technique and many hours of repetition on the weakest hand. There's really nothing else to it.
“Let's try some of my songs.” Dave Grohl, top sign drummer will be fired.
YamahaPlayer
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Re: the moeller killer - will it make a difference ??

Postby YamahaPlayer » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:45 am

Gaddabout -

Check out Tommy Iggoe's "LifeTime Hands"

It's pretty much exactly what you describe. And for the record I agree 100% with what you said, both about JoJo's dvd AND technique in general.

It's a means to an end, it's always a shame to see so many players concentrate on the easy part and not the hard part (the practice). Thinking that "If only I move my X just like that guy, I'll be fast too!!"
rpc

Re: the moeller killer - will it make a difference ??

Postby rpc » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:02 pm

The guys who disparage physical chops virtually never have any.

The guys who don't have what the non-physical-chops crowd have rarely disparage it.
Jim Richman
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Re: the moeller killer - will it make a difference ??

Postby Jim Richman » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:30 am

Moeller did not do anything except watch how other drummers play, and then noticed what their hands were doing. He named what he saw. Moeller is something that happens naturally. Sure you can try to do it, but it has to feel good. And it's all about playing notes and music. It does not matter how fast you are, you need to know what you want to say first.
Keith Mansfield rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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