Revealing Simultaneous Relationship in Time

[Mark Levine]

These files have been posted before, but a miscommunication occurred causing the original post to be deleted.

Click on the attached JPGs (1, 2, 3) to view. www.rhythmschool.com/

A 5 stroke roll. Polymeters and Polyrhythms.
They can exist at the same time on a rhythm of continuous 8th notes in 4/4 meter.

The primary meter is four four (4/4).
The 5 stroke roll can be thought of as five eight meter (5/8).
Eight measures of (5/8) will cycle over Five measures of (4/4). Polymeter.

The Polyrhythm is the relationship between the accent of the 5 stroke roll and the metronome's pulse.
8 accents are evenly spaced over 10 half note pulses, or (8:10).
8 accents are evenly spaced over 5 whole note pulses, or (8:5).

The half note and whole note are two different note notations of tempo pulse. (speed relationships).
An option is to practice metric modulations. Metric modulations can be performed by shifting from one pulse value to a different note pulse value without stopping.
You can improvise with metric modulations at different points in the cycle.
Experiment to find which pulse values and places to modulate feel the best to use.- You can use a whole note value from beat 3 in one measure to beat 3 of the next measure(s).

The accent of the 5 stroke roll is on the fifth 8th note of every five 8th notes.
Above the 8th notes is a curved line.
It is a slur sign, or phrase mark.
A phrase mark identifies a sequence of notes as a unified idea.
A complete musical expression of shape and form.

Another fun option, is to turn off the metronome and play the cycles to songs you like.
Play them with different sections of the song and starting from different quarter note beats and 8th notes in the measure.

[deseipel]

Your notion of what constitutes a poly-rhythm is different that what the Chaffee books explain. Especially the ratio thing. I think.


Isnt' the ratio supposed to represent x:y where x = number of notes and y= the number of beats (defined by the time signature).

so 5:2 in 4/4 = a quintuplet over 2 beats (defined as quarter notes in the time signature) in the measure (doesn't matter where in the measure).

I'm still thinking about this, but there's something I can't put my finger on that doesnt' sit right with me. I think it has to do with calling every 5th-8th note a polyrhythm, which I would disagree. Some call it a cross rhythm. But I'm still trying to understand what you mean by what your wrote....



edit: ok, I get it. It's not different, I misunderstood what you were calling a polyrhythm.


re-edit: well, hold on. I think the issue I have is that all of the notes are always eighth notes, so how's that a polyrhythm?


last edit: ok, I get it. It's simply subdividing a long drawn out polyrhythm.

[Mark Levine]

Hey Deseipel,

In terms of Meter, by grouping every five 8th notes, you can now use an offset barline. Their is a barline for every five 8th notes, or 5/8. Their is the barline for every eight 8th notes, (8/8) or 4/4. The grouping and offset barline, allows the 8th notes to be thought of as Simultaneous Meter, or Polymeter.

However, the simultaneous meters of 5/8 and 4/4 are not polyrhythmic speed relationships. The meters and the 8th notes are not, "evenly spaced in the time of each other". They are not a relationship of offset speeds, occurring simultaneously.

The 8th notes are in unison, moving at the same speed. What their unison speed does do, is to provide common ground for a polyrhythmic speed relationship to occur. That is between the Accent of every fifth 8th note, (of the roll stroke), and the note notation of the pulse of the metronome. Those are evenly spaced relationships of different speeds occurring simultaneously.

That evenly spaced relationship is not limited to notes over beats in a measure. It can occur over division and subdivision within a measure, cross the barline of measures, occur without a meter, or in other creative ways: such as the relationship between the accent and the metronomes pulse.

[deseipel]

wouldn't it be easier to describe it as 4:10, 4 accents in the space of 10 quarter notes? instead of 4 accents in the space of 5 half notes?

in my example 5:2, the '2' refers to 2 beats of the given note type in the bottom of the time signature. so its five notes in the space of 2 quarter notes. I would think if I saw your example as 4:5, I'd look for 4 quarter notes in the space of 5 quarter notes. In other words, why label a polyrhythm where the number after the colon doesn't refer to the given note value that 'gets the beat' (the bottom of the time signature)?

Take for instance the common, 3:2. 3 quarter notes in the space of two quarter notes. it's not labeled 3:1 (three quarters in the space of 1 half) or 3:4 (three quarters in the space of 4 eighth notes).

Just a small suggestion.

[Mark Levine]

No. It is inaccurate.
The polyrhythmic relationship is between the accent and metronome's pulse. That is 4:5 Half Note Pulses. Not 4:10 quarter note pulses. I did not use a quarter note notation of metronome's pulse at all anywhere on those files.

In referring to the ten quarter notes, their is a polyrhythmic relationship between every 2 accents and 5 quarter notes. It is (2:5). Two > evenly spaced over 5 quarter notes. Repeat that, and there is your 4:10 polyrhythmic ratio. - But Not Between the Accent and Metronome's Pulse.

The 10 quarter notes you are referring to, exist within the (4:5 speed relationship), but five of those quarter notes have nothing to do with, and no relation at all to the metronome's pulse. Metronome's pulse lands on 5 of those quarter notes only. The first of every two quarter notes is a Half note, and those 5 Half notes are the pulses referred to in those files. 4 > evenly spaced in the time of 5 half note pules. Repeated, becomes 8:10 half note pulses.

I will answer the second part of your post in another post. Have to go. All the best to you

[Mark Levine]

Their is a fundamental difference between how you and i think and work with outside ratios.
You look at 5 in the time of 2, ( 5:2 ), or whatever the numbers are, as having to be, or should be connected to a meter, and the bottom number in a meter format.

I think of and work with outside ratios from this understanding:
They are different rates of speed evenly spaced in the time of each other. The momentum they sustain through suspending rhythms, can function within and without a meter format. They require no meter at all. why?

Numbers 2 to infinity exist within a perfect circular orbit. That perfect circular orbit has a number. The Number 1.
The Number 1 can be thought of as a Pulse. Tempo Pulse. Numbers 2 to infinity are evenly spaced in the time of number 1.

5 can be evenly spaced in the time of 2, (5:2), or 3 can be evenly spaced in the time of 2, (3:2), because before they are "in the time of " one another, they are First Evenly Spaced in the Time of Number 1. A metronome's tempo pulse.

1 divides into 2, 1 divides into 3, 1 divides into 5, etc. Evenly. All numbers are evenly spaced perfectly in the time of 1, and therefore, evenly spaced in the time of each other. The even division of 1 originates this without meter.
Rhythm is Geometric Shape that transforms into speed relationships through music.

Meter has nothing to do with any of this. This functions completely independently of meter.

To answer your question of "why label a polyrhythm where the number after the colon doesn't refer to the given note value that 'gets the beat" (the bottom of the time signature)?
Answer : The speed relationship can function apart from the meter, and yet be within a meter format.

Lets use 5:2 for example. The meter is Six Eight (6/8).

An 8th note quintuplet in the time of two dotted quarter notes. That is (5:2)

Where is that dotted quarter note in the bottom number 8.
A dotted quarter note can be thought of as a meter of 3/8, but it does not have an 8th note notation corresponding to the bottom number in the 6/8 meter.

The point is The Evenly Spaced Speed Relationships of 5:2, can work independently of the bottom number in a meter.

[deseipel]

How does the reader of a piece know what is meant by a ratio if it doesn't, in some way, refer to the time signature written? In other words, if your phrase was in a piece as written, how would the reader know that you're referring to half notes?

There's a lot of ways to think about meters that can fit inside each other. I think the shortest way of saying your example is that:

4 measures of 5/8 = 5 measures of 4/4. There's 20 notes in there and if you accent every 5th one, you get 4 in the space of 5.


And I don't want to be 'wikipedia dude', but check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyrhythm. A poly rhythm usually consists of notes that are classified as 'irrational rhythms', such as tuplets, over top of 'rational rhythms' such as eighth notes or quarter notes. I think what you have in your examples qualifies as a cross-rhythm. This is because none of the notes are 'irrational', they're all just eighth notes.

I think it's open to interpretation to an extent....

[Josiah]

That seems like a very complex way of learning to mark out a rhythm of 5 in common time. It's known as implied metric modulation.

If you are simply accenting a given rhythm, in this case the grouping of 5, in 8th notes. That is implied metric modulation. You are implying the rhythm of 5 using the 8th notes.

Be wary of using 5/8 to define a grouping of 5. You are not playing 5/8. All you are doing is marking, or accenting, every 5th note. This is very different then creating and playing in an entirely different time signature super imposed over another independent time signature.

One could say the accent of 5 creates a polyrhythm against the 4/4 time IF - and ONLY IF - you are concurrently marking out the 4/4. If you accented the 1 of each bar in addition to every 5th note, the concurrently running accents would be a 4:5 polyrhythm. It would be 5:4 if you accented the 1 of each bar of 5/4 while also accenting every 4th note.

This is a good method to learn any given polyrhythm: You simply group your notes for the base and accent the grouping for the 2nd rhythm.

The OP's example would be how to find 4:5. If you reversed the example and had bars of 5/4, accented the 1 of each bar while you accented every 4th note. The accents would give you 5:4.

You could take bars of 3/4, accenting the 1 of each bar, while accenting everything 4th 8th note. This would give you 3:4

Bars of 6/4, accenting the 1 of every bar, and every 5th 8th note, would give you 6:5. And so on

Try accenting other groupings, a phrasing of 5 that Vinnie loves to use would be XxXxx. With the method under discussion a good way to learn it is by marking out the time, 4/4, on your feet with a simple groove and play RLRLL accenting the right hand notes only. You can then move it to both hands alternating, RLRLR LRLRL . The next step would be to remove the none-accented notes and only play the accents. Then ad flams, kit orchestration, etc


Great way to train your ears and mind to hear and feel the various groupings over each other. Eventually only play the accents while counting the time base, etc
Check out 'Illusions in Rhythm for Drumset' by Osami Mizuno and Vinnie Colaiuta. Gavin Harrisons 'Illusions in Rhythm' is also an excellent text on the subject.
Chaffee's 'Rhythm & Meter Patterns' being the definitive text on the subject .

This concept can be seen nice illustrated in a variety of ways in Alan Dawsons 'Ruidmental Ritual' .

PS: Mark Levine, a 5 stroke roll is not 5/8. A 5 stroke roll, in 8th note base, would be 3/4. Four 8th notes followed by a quarter note. The accent of the roll is twice the value of the rolled notes. Playing RRLLR with even values would be what's called 'slurring' the roll and is different then the traditional rudiment by name.
For this concept, I would suggest you simply state "Accent every 5th note" or "Accent every 7th note"

[deseipel]

Lets use 5:2 for example. The meter is Six Eight (6/8).

An 8th note quintuplet in the time of two dotted quarter notes. That is (5:2)

Where is that dotted quarter note in the bottom number 8.
A dotted quarter note can be thought of as a meter of 3/8, but it does not have an 8th note notation corresponding to the bottom number in the 6/8 meter.

The point is The Evenly Spaced Speed Relationships of 5:2, can work independently of the bottom number in a meter.

ok, I found the crux of our discussion.

You think the 2nd ratio is determined by whatever you set your metronome at, right?

[Yussuf]