Richest drummers, I'm no on it... :-)

[Josiah]

Most people I know that download music don´t give a shit about listening in a proper system or room.

You know, a lot of us only have the time to actually listen to music when driving.


If you have the time to sit down and listen to music in a dedicated listening environment, then please share the secret, because I don't know any working musician with that level of free time.

[Julián Fernández]

I do have time... In fact I´m planning to do even more "proper listening".
Last year I scored a nice pair of Genelec 8020a. Best buy in a while. (btw, my "dedicated listening enviroment" is my drum room -where I have a couple of bass traps-)

Most musicians I know listen a lot of music and not while driving. You don´t have 45 mins a week do it? You must be working like crazy! Good for you.

EDIT: Btw, you should reconsider the fact that listening music is for your "free time" only. (which I think is a pretty stupid concept. The concept of "free time").
You could use some shedding time to listen to a record. I know I should at least!

[willyz]

Willyz, for starters you can't use your very specific time and place to base a generalize argument that sweeps a global scale.*
Secondly, are you referring to cover bands? $50 for a "bar gig" sounds like a cover band.

No offense, but that's totally outside the argument and frankly if you don't make money playing covers. Boo Hoo. It's a COVER BAND.


*Also I'm sorry it seems that bad, but that might also just be you, that specific area, a slump for that area, who knows. I live in a TINY city compared to Austin and easily make $100/night for any number of cover bands. Granted at 4 sets, that's only $25/hour, but none the less. Churches pay way better, but that's whole different conversation.

How many artists on iTunes? Were more people then that selling their music BEFORE iTunes?

Come on man. There is an astounding number of artists and musicians pushing their products, SELLING THEM, on the market. WAY more then pre-internet and modern technology.


There's many many many times more musicians and artists making money off their music then ever before. You need to understand that fact. First.

Now move on to the crux of the conversation - the musicians aren't making AS MUCH. AS MUCH is the important part.

You know what takes money away from musicians though? Controlling the radio and media to only allow your particular pop artists into the open market. It's not the teenagers at home downloading FooFighters keeping your music off the radio.

Go try and get a song played on the radio, you'll find out real fucking quick the who what and why nobody's making money.

(Edited the post down to focus on certain points)

Okay, so I'm less of a musician because I get hired to play in bands that play covers? Or is that a whole other argument? Honestly, I usually don't take original gigs because they don't pay and frankly the music is rarely anything good. I get hired because I can transcribe the tunes note for note, play them well without having to rehearse with the band (in case they're in a crunch), and they know what they're going to get. And no, I hardly take the $50 or less gigs anymore, covers or original. It's just not worth the hastle. Parking has become more of an issue here in Austin, certain parts of downtown get blocked off (on weekends) by police for safety of the hoard of drunk people, and it's very difficult to get around.

$100 a night for a bar gig? Your tiny town seems great. Is it a town full of musicians like it is here where there's so many people willing to play for nothing or next to nothing (quality isn't exactly a factor)? For the most part, I'm only playing with my band these days. It's a business run with me and two other members, we're playing covers and originals, we have merch that we know sells, and we only take club/bar gigs if we know the venue can will pull in a crowd and obviously, if they're willing to pay us a reasonable amount (usually $50-$100 a man for two 50 minute sets, but the venues usually only do the gig once a month). I know my band mates are going to play well, the gig will be hassle free, I'm getting good pay, and it's going to be fun. Why is mixing business/professionalism with the pleasure of playing great music (original or not) with great players as well as friends frowned upon so?

You're right, it is much, much easier for an indie artist to put their stuff online and make some money from it, assuming it sells. Anybody can half-ass a record on their laptop and get it on iTunes. Doesn't make it a good record though. And you're right about the radio thing too. People get spoon fed so much crap and the companies mass produce more junk. I'd argue a lot of that began (while I'm sure it's always been going on to some extent) in the 90's with the Britney Spears/boy band phase, and the same mass-produced thing started to happen with nu-metal/alt bands too (your Shinedowns and what not).

Granted, yes, we're all in different parts of the world and different markets. But I do believe that there is a correlation between the amount of money musicians make and the decline of physical media sales/online culture. I've personally expereinced this regression in the last four years.

This is, as always, a very interesting discussion- I'm glad that we have HOD to be able to talk about this stuff with actual players that respect one another.

EDIT: I mean, look at this example: Eric Clapton hires Steve Gadd, Abe Jr, Steve Jordan, Ian Thomas, etc to play in his band. Those guys didn't write any of the tunes that they're playing with Eric. They're playing covers, essentially. Granted it's a much bigger scale than our level, but still... are those drummers less musicians because they're playing someone else's music?

[bigbone]

EDIT: I mean, look at this example: Eric Clapton hires Steve Gadd, Abe Jr, Steve Jordan, Ian Thomas, etc to play in his band. Those guys didn't write any of the tunes that they're playing with Eric. They're playing covers, essentially. Granted it's a much bigger scale than our level, but still... are those drummers less musicians because they're playing someone else's music?

Gadd and Abe Jr play also on most of the CD of the artist that they play live with........

[willyz]

EDIT: I mean, look at this example: Eric Clapton hires Steve Gadd, Abe Jr, Steve Jordan, Ian Thomas, etc to play in his band. Those guys didn't write any of the tunes that they're playing with Eric. They're playing covers, essentially. Granted it's a much bigger scale than our level, but still... are those drummers less musicians because they're playing someone else's music?

Gadd and Abe Jr play also on most of the CD of the artist that they play live with........

Yes, but they're not writing the tunes, are they? And I'm pretty sure EC's last record was all covers.

[Julián Fernández]

EDIT: I mean, look at this example: Eric Clapton hires Steve Gadd, Abe Jr, Steve Jordan, Ian Thomas, etc to play in his band. Those guys didn't write any of the tunes that they're playing with Eric. They're playing covers, essentially. Granted it's a much bigger scale than our level, but still... are those drummers less musicians because they're playing someone else's music?

That´s a bit of a stretch of the concept. They´re playing original music that they didn´t happen to record. Not the same thing.

[DeeP_FRieD]

I got your back willyz...

Cover bands are the bread and butter of working musicians, or at least good ones (bands and musicians).

Here's how it works:
Someone starts a cover band. They start booking gigs. If the vocal talent is good, they will get more. Once they have a good amount of gigs, they will start needing subs usually because of scheduling issues. Once they get one sub in that is a killer musician, they will more than likely try to use him all the time and consult his rolodex for subs on his and other instruments. If the money is there, eventually the gig will get infiltrated by the good musicians in that scene.

I've seen it go down many times. Once there's cash, the guys that know their shit will take the hit regardless of it's cheddar factor. I could list off 3 in my city, and even a crappy singer songwriter that have somehow manifested their thing from friends to professionals.

I nor anyone I play with would turn their nose up at a nice top 40 hit. I've made some seemingly obscene loot off single top 40 gigs that I got a call out of the blue, and you're sure as shit I went in there and did the job right, so I get the call again.

There's no shame in wanting to do what you love for a living... and, I hate to break it to some folks here, odds wise, even paying rent in a house you're sharing with 4 other musicians with a creative project is, the deck is stacked against you heavily.

Another thing with covers, what do you think a lot of the great bebop was? Covers or a re-harmonization and re-melodization... Charlie Parker did the latter a lot.


Josiah, I swear every time I look at a thread on this forum you are teetering the line between troll and frumpy... what gives?

Also, I noticed your in CO, what city? I'm close enough I could book a road gig up there and see if what you're saying about your locale is true, plus I'd like to get my carve on this season and CO has all the best mountains.

[circh bustom]

Deep Fried, it is exactly as Josiah put it in South Jersey. I have a full time 40 hr a week job, but I still do almost two gigs a week average all year long at about 100$ per man, if not more. That is in a band with 5-6 guys, plus a two man crew to move heavy shit and expenses for the band truck. We play mostly 80's rock/pop with some very current dance stuff mixed in. I play in two other bands as well, playing more eclectic covers, but we always make a decent wage. Will it allow me to drive a Maserati? Well no, but it is extra money that I can use to improve my life. Sort of a second job instead of working at Starbucks or WalMart part time. I have a friend who is a decent drummer and he plays 4-5 nights a week year round and supports himself with it. Playing all covers and the occasional jazz gig, which of course is covers as well. Maybe the areas you and willyz are in have grown too big for their britches so to speak. We play all over South Jersey, eastern PA, and northern Delaware, all around an hours drive each way. There could always be more work and more money but so what? Better to be playing a gig and getting some kind of compensation for it, than sitting home watching Storage Wars banging out rudiments on a pad, thinking about gigging.

And Kurtis? +1 dude.

[Juan Expósito]

For me, some of the best listening experiences have been in my car.
A good car sound system and good audio recordings...and you can convert those miles of travelling in a very EMOTIONAL and LEARNING experience.

[DeeP_FRieD]

Deep Fried, it is exactly as Josiah put it in South Jersey. I have a full time 40 hr a week job, but I still do almost two gigs a week average all year long at about 100$ per man, if not more. That is in a band with 5-6 guys, plus a two man crew to move heavy shit and expenses for the band truck. We play mostly 80's rock/pop with some very current dance stuff mixed in. I play in two other bands as well, playing more eclectic covers, but we always make a decent wage. Will it allow me to drive a Maserati? Well no, but it is extra money that I can use to improve my life. Sort of a second job instead of working at Starbucks or WalMart part time. I have a friend who is a decent drummer and he plays 4-5 nights a week year round and supports himself with it. Playing all covers and the occasional jazz gig, which of course is covers as well. Maybe the areas you and willyz are in have grown too big for their britches so to speak. We play all over South Jersey, eastern PA, and northern Delaware, all around an hours drive each way. There could always be more work and more money but so what? Better to be playing a gig and getting some kind of compensation for it, than sitting home watching Storage Wars banging out rudiments on a pad, thinking about gigging.

And Kurtis? +1 dude.

I think the main difference between your situation and mine is that my area has the Phoenix metro area, and outside of that it's other states, as Tucson and Flagstaff aren't too great.

By other states I'm talking about a 300 mile trip.

Also, Josiah was saying a cover band is a cover band and they don't make loot, which is what you said you're playing in, so I don't see how it's exactly as he put it.