Will I hurt myself this way ?

[sejuba]

Hi y'all. I have started practicing single strokes again for the 100th time now. Its been 1 1/2 month since I started and I'm keeping track
of my progress. It started out really bad as I was getting frustrated with my current speed but in the last couple weeks there was some noticeable improvements which
got me all excited. I'm not in a hurry, at least thats what I tell my brain when I start feeling anxiety kickin in. This is a long term thing. I've given myself
an year to get to where I want, given I keep up with my daily routine (which I know I can).

My overal technique is fairly good, and I had given up on trying to play fast. I still don't care how fast these drummers nowadays
are, instead I try to focus on being more musical. The problem is, I really wanna be able to keep up with the rest of the band while playing
fast samba patterns...the songs are usually around 124-135 bpm (16thswith right hand). There are a lot of accents which
gets played in unisson with the L hand. Its crazy fast (for me). I'm no where near these speeds yet. More likely around 110bpm.

Anyway, I don't wanna sound like I know everything about technique (which I don't) but I've spent a lot of time on it, got all the
good books and videos, private lessons yadda yadda. You must play relaxed. Gotta use bounce. Choose which gear to use and when.
Build muscle memory and endurance etc...

I came up with a routine which will pretty much get me all warmed up after 15-20minutes. Everything feels great. But I'm always
experimenting different ways of playing. So I tried something out which kinda worked and then out of coincidence, I
ran into a Mike Mangini video on you tube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gxut0odyc) where he mentioned
what I was doing which basically is: flexing certain parts of your body while leaving your fingers as loose as possible).

So anyway, I experimented a lot and found that if I flex (specially) my biceps and forearm my hands will be free
to move faster. All of a sudden I was playing 16th notes at 125 quite easily. I didn't experience any pain at all
although my elbows felt a bit funny. Interesting enough, I stopped doing it as I got a bit scared of hurting myself
and tried again withot flexing anything and the speed was there (for a shorter period of time though).

The part of the video where he talks about that is btwn: 2:55-3:43

Is there anyone here who can clarify wether or not this is a "bad" thing to do ?

Happy New Year everyone.

[sevenoverthree]

I think if you're sensible, you won't hurt yourself. I think a lot of physical endurance stuff comes down to walking that line between the pain you get from working out, and pain you get because you hurt yourself. My guess is if you go too fast for too long, you're gonna give yourself tennis elbow, or some other kind of repeated stress injury. But more importantly, I think you gotta try to step back and look at the bigger picture of what you want to do. I know when I was studying with my teacher, I'd come to him with my woes about whatever technical issue I was having (speed came up plenty of times) and lay out all the things I was doing or not doing, and try to get some insight on what I could do better. 10 years later I feel like I understand why his answers were always such a big letdown.

I really believe that 90% of your road to faster, stronger singles is simply wanting it. You sound pretty reasonable throughout the post- taking your time, using bounce, etc. I mean 135bpm is quick, but I don't think it's 'hurt yourself quick' provided you are stretching, resting up and doing all that other good stuff. If I were wanting to hit this goal, I'd probably attack it from more than one angle.

1- I'd track my endurance at the rate I want. I mean real world application-wise- you're probably not looking for more than a couple minutes, straight. Say what you will about pocket, I think 16ths at 135 for a 7 minute samba would sound maddening. You really most likely wanna just be able to hang through a head or perhaps a couple choruses. I would spend time swiching in and out of that feel for increasing intervals and watch where you are falling apart.

2- I'd hit the strengthening from a couple of angles. I would do a "bad cop" routine where I would just play big ass 90+ degree rotations as fast as I could. work up the length of time and tempo gradually. Also I would do a "good cop" routine where I would spend time grooving at that tempo and try to eek in an easy bar or two of the feel I was going for. I think when you're aiming for a physical thing like this, the entrance and exit points are as critical (I might argue more critical) than the quality of the thing itself.

3- I'd be spending a lot of time playing alternating singles but also unison playing. And I don't mean big, floppy flams- I mean tight layered, unison playing. Try to put a partito alto over those running singles. Move from cross stick to toms, snare drum, etc. Do it both from a crossed over, hi-hat/snare position and a more open ride/snare position.

I've seen a lot of footage of the more killing Brazilian guys and they all seem to mix up a lot of different playing modes. Also, more esoterically, I think you gotta be able to "hear fast" as well as "play fast". I spent months working out to gonzalo rubalcba records and others to really get my ears up to speed. Once that stuff started to click, I found that I was making more concerted decisions on technique stuff. I used to say- how am I gonna get 32nds up to that speed- now I say how am I gonna get that "E + Ah" happening.

Good luck and happy practicing!

--Riccardo

[sejuba]

Its always nice to get some feedback. That was great, thank you. A lot of drummers are shy to ask this type of question because they feel
they might get that condescending look from their peers. Although I'm still at a very early stage of where I wanna be at in a year or so, I can't
help but to smile when I notice progress. Its a beautiful thing.

Today I was experimenting again with flexing my foream and realized I had to do less flexing as if muscle memory had kicked in and told
my arm how to do it with less effort...baby steps, I know.

Its also very interesting what you said about wanting it to happen and knowing when you'll be applying it. I still find quite challenging being able to
"hear" fast. Its been helpfull to mess around with switching the metronome from double time to cut time and also when practicing alternating
singles, having the metronome play 8th notes.

[sejuba]

oh ! I forgot to mention I've been doing a lot of exercises with my hands...like opening and closing it as if I was holding sticks, tapping, stretching etc...

[chris perra]

I can't see it hurting you. It's not like your lifting crazy weights or anything. Just make sure your sticks bounces and you don't get a crazy shock..
Self flexing your muscles shouldn't damage them... I've never tried it myself, but I can see how it would work. I guess the hard part would be making the sound of you playing be consistent wen changing from tense to relaxed..

[Gaddabout]

I've come around recently to an argument that doing it the old-fashioned way -- all wrists on pilllows, etc. -- is probably the QUICKEST way to getting good hands, but I remain unconvinced that it's the BEST. It's probably unhealthy. That's how I did it, and spent the next 25 years trying to learn how to play loose. My hands are about the only thing that I think are "up to par."

Having spent the the past 5 years winding down because I just couldn't play anymore without pain, I'm very skeptical of anything that requires a lot of flexing of forearm muscles. I'll defer to anyone who knows the science behind it, but carpal tunnel may have permanently sidelined me, so do anything like that with a lot of caution. I'm 43 and I can't play anything on a drum set without my hands going numb or pain in my wrists after 5 minutes, and I'm confident my technique is pretty solid right now. The damage was done years ago, when I developed Popeye arms in search of drum corps hands.

[sejuba]

I have a couple rules when I'm doing that stuff... 1 - my hands must feel loose all the time 2 - i try not to flex any muscle too hard. 3 - I must have warmed up properly before I attempt anything.
I've messed around with flexing abs, chest but that didn't help much. As I said, I'm not in a hurry but I do want to get my hands to a decent degree of awesomeness. hehe Also, the pillow thing just doesn't do for me. I gotta feel the bounce. I've noticed my singles are A LOT better when I switch to fingers although I can't keep up very long (I believe its normal) on the other hand, 1/2 bar of well executed singles are more than enough to get you through most songs. For the brazilian stuff, I'm mostly using moeller (with german grip)... the faster I go, less fingers I'm able to use. Fingers will come into action whenever I start feeling comfortable with the speed I'm at.

[Julián Fernández]

I remember a nice vid of Akira Jimbo from Japanese TV regarding body and muscle movements... Anyone remember it? Can´t find it on the tube...

[sejuba]

I remember a nice vid of Akira Jimbo from Japanese TV regarding body and muscle movements... Anyone remember it? Can´t find it on the tube...

I'd love to see that...

[Tombo 7/4]

A thing taught to me by Kim Plainfield when I was studying at DC was Buddy Rich's "Big Bird" approach.
If you look at old Buddy Rich videos you can see him doing it when he reaches blazzing speed on the snare, his arms are like bird wings taking flight.
It's not a flash thing, there's physics behind it. It's like shifting into high gear at some point to give your speed a quantum leap.
You could search on it, it's not talked about very much. Here's an article by Canadian teacher Bruce T. Wittet where he mentions that:

"I needed to rationalize this seeming contraction. Okay, I get it: leverage comes from the wrist and maybe the arms!
The problem with this solution was that teachers and books universally insisted that good drummers
do not flap their arms up and down like a heron (or eagle or otherwise big bird) taking flight.
I began research, looking first outside the realm of drumming.
I looked to tennis, since as a kid I’d had an amazing serve, and to ping pong,
since I’d taken it up in college and the motions seemed relevant to drum technique.
The answer was across the road in the playground."

http://www.tbrucewittet.com/2011/04/the-correct-drumstick-grip-whats-with-the-thumb-first-finger-%E2%80%9Cfulcrum%E2%80%9D/