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Two-part question for the pickle that I'm in:

The backstory is that I am playing in a musical that opens this week. It's a four-part band with five-actor/singer cast. The show is essentially all 90's boy band music and the singers all have extensive choreography. According to the feedback from the MD, there are multiple numbers that appear to have tempo issues.

Out of all the shows that I have done (10 different musicals; 150+ performances total), I have never, ever had an MD state that we have had tempo issues. Furthermore, I have played with this MD in the past with her on keys, and I have subbed for her before in the past and heard nothing but good things. I should add that I have worked with local "name" MDs as well as have worked with MDs that have toured with national tours of Broadway-based musicals, so I figure that no negative feedback from them = a good thing.

Therefore, I have two hypotheses about the root of the problem:

1.) The tempos are all over the place due to the singers/actors having to do choreography and it is causing tempo issues-- almost all of the numbers seems to drag when they are supposed to push. I feel like it has to do with people trying to hit their steps/marks/etc.

1.a.) Furthermore, sometimes the MD counts me in, I nail the tempo, and then she starts conducting us to speed up when this was the set tempo... the look comes to me that I am the one slowing down???

2.) I've been on a drumming hiatus for months due to back issues. I have been working with the metronome quite a bit since coming back, and I have noticed that I am a little rusty in terms of my time; that being said, I wouldn't assume that 17+ years of drumming and time-building would fall apart due to some time off. That being said, I am open to that proposition, as I have never have had to fight tempos like I have at this gig.

I have considered bringing in a click, but I am very certain that this would introduce more problems than it would resolve--not only are there stage cues that are spur-of-the-moment, and the MD is jumpy in terms of count-ins, but having to corral everyone into following metronomic time would be rough, especially since it opens in a couple days. I have thought of bringing one into rehearsal, just to see how many of these tempo issues are "real" and how many are potentially imagined.

Anyways, does anyone have experience in this area/had similar problems in a similar gig? Furthermore, have you noticed taking time away from the drums resulting in screwy time?

The long story made short is that I am now getting to the point where I am second-guessing all my tempos and am getting all psyched out.

I am perplexed...

I've had the same problems in the past, especially with people wanting to count off the tunes, and then changing their minds after a few bars... And it always seems to fallback on the drummer... I've gotten quite worried, thinking that I was having major timeissues. I've gone back to the practicing room only to find out that my time wasn't as bad as i thought!
It's also often a band issue, if someone seems to speed up or drag, it's gonna affect the entire band. Especially if that instrumentalist is playing somewhat percussive/rhythmical parts.

Next time I play with the same director, I ask the about the tempo prior to playing the actual music, verify with a metronome, and write the tempos down on the sheet.
I'm sure you've done this already!
Or, I would sit down face to face with the MD and ask how he or she looks at the problem. This will hopefully end up as a good discussion, ending up in a concensus on how you shuld work out the problem together...

This has worked for me in the past, but I still gett in these situations occasionally, and it's superbad for my self-esteem! Contantly working on time, still...

I hope you find a good way to deal with this, and the MD in question!
Let us now how you do, come opening night!
Best of luck!

littlegrooves wrote:Two-part question for the pickle that I'm in:

The backstory is that I am playing in a musical that opens this week. It's a four-part band with five-actor/singer cast. The show is essentially all 90's boy band music and the singers all have extensive choreography. According to the feedback from the MD, there are multiple numbers that appear to have tempo issues.

Out of all the shows that I have done (10 different musicals; 150+ performances total), I have never, ever had an MD state that we have had tempo issues. Furthermore, I have played with this MD in the past with her on keys, and I have subbed for her before in the past and heard nothing but good things. I should add that I have worked with local "name" MDs as well as have worked with MDs that have toured with national tours of Broadway-based musicals, so I figure that no negative feedback from them = a good thing.

Therefore, I have two hypotheses about the root of the problem:

1.) The tempos are all over the place due to the singers/actors having to do choreography and it is causing tempo issues-- almost all of the numbers seems to drag when they are supposed to push. I feel like it has to do with people trying to hit their steps/marks/etc.

1.a.) Furthermore, sometimes the MD counts me in, I nail the tempo, and then she starts conducting us to speed up when this was the set tempo... the look comes to me that I am the one slowing down???

2.) I've been on a drumming hiatus for months due to back issues. I have been working with the metronome quite a bit since coming back, and I have noticed that I am a little rusty in terms of my time; that being said, I wouldn't assume that 17+ years of drumming and time-building would fall apart due to some time off. That being said, I am open to that proposition, as I have never have had to fight tempos like I have at this gig.

I have considered bringing in a click, but I am very certain that this would introduce more problems than it would resolve--not only are there stage cues that are spur-of-the-moment, and the MD is jumpy in terms of count-ins, but having to corral everyone into following metronomic time would be rough, especially since it opens in a couple days. I have thought of bringing one into rehearsal, just to see how many of these tempo issues are "real" and how many are potentially imagined.

Anyways, does anyone have experience in this area/had similar problems in a similar gig? Furthermore, have you noticed taking time away from the drums resulting in screwy time?

The long story made short is that I am now getting to the point where I am second-guessing all my tempos and am getting all psyched out.

I am perplexed...

I would state to your MD that you are not the one to blame for the tempo issues. You are a seasoned pro and the tempo issues lay elsewhere. As a drummer, it should be obvious when someone points out a tempo issue about your playing. But when you KNOW it's not your faul, it is time to tell them what's up. Or maybe you can just eat it, cause you seem to have done a lot of these things. Which usually requires you to eat it anyway.

I'd record the rehearsals, more than one and see what's up..
And go over it with the MD.. Really in a situation like that. You'd think everything would be referenced to a click..for the music and the dancers to be consistent. I'd work out the tempos with the md at least the starting tempos. and use to start for every song.

Yup. Record it. It will be obvious if there is a problem or if it's all in her head.

and Yup, it should have been rehearsed with a click in the first place.

Record it first, talk to the MD later.

Julián Fernández wrote:Record it first, talk to the MD later.

Absolutely.

I was in a situation a few years ago where the main guy swore after a gig that a particular song was getting faster and faster as the song went on (looking at me, of course).

Luckily, it was recorded -- we could listen to it and count it off -- it did speed up, but by only 2 bpm. So what could he say?

Different situation here, of course, but a recording shows a lot. And it quiets a lot too.

Went to the Barnim and Bailey Circus last night. They have a live band that plays most of the show. Holy page turner. Their music books rival entire encyclopedias. Drummer was really good. They are tucked away. they have to view the entire floor. Tigers, people flipping, clowns, elephants, dogs, pyro, men on rope 3 stories high and a million other cues. Great show. They have to deal with a different show every night due to human and animal behavior. The high wire/rope guy couldn't jump over 4 people. He tried 2 twice but fell over but hung on to the wire to get back on his feet. Band is cuing off this shit the entire time. The band has their shit together.

Thanks everyone for the feedback! I will post more this weekend after the show opens-- just got back from a preview and I am about to hit the sack, so I'll save it all for later.

I actually know that one of the sound people has a video recording of the rehearsals, so I will be able to cue in on the exact spots where I see her conducting different tempos than what we are at--it will help my figure out what exactly is happening at those points.

Furthermore, Keys #1 and #2 are covering bass, which I always see as a problem, as I feel like almost everyone I play with on keys in these situations has a lazy bass hand and is more concerned with melodies in these settings; things get really shaky as a result, especially since this is a very percussive score with a lot of unison kicks and stuff all over on off-beats (as Sebastian noted in his post).

Rarely do I ever get to play with a bass player in these situations, which I think would really, really, really help; theaters generally feel their money is "wasted" paying for a part that they think a keyboard can cover, and usually the MD is willing to go along with it because they are the ones playing keys and don't want to ask the theater to ante up extra $ and admit that they can't cover the bass sufficiently. However, I think it would be some of the best money spent in these situations, so that someone with a better rhythmic background can cover the low end while keys worry about "what patch they are going to have to change to next..." In these situations, I generally have to lock in with... myself.

I've been thinking about sneaking a click into some rehearsal songs and see what happens... see if I can pull a "gotcha" if talk of tempo issues surface again.

Thanks for the feedback so far-- has made me feel quite a bit better knowing that I am traveling the road well-travelled. And as for the circus drummers, I believe it-- the Cirque Du Soleil ones are sick.

More to come...

Jim Richman wrote:I would state to your MD that you are not the one to blame for the tempo issues. You are a seasoned pro and the tempo issues lay elsewhere. As a drummer, it should be obvious when someone points out a tempo issue about your playing. But when you KNOW it's not your faul, it is time to tell them what's up. Or maybe you can just eat it, cause you seem to have done a lot of these things. Which usually requires you to eat it anyway.

Sorry Jim but this is the LAST thing that I would EVER do!!!!! That seems like the fastest way to get fired to me.

Playing with dancers is really tough work (it makes working with singers seem like a vacation.) I've done off Broadway gigs with a few tap groups. The dancers have to be comfortable, and their time is rarely (ie. never) metronomic. And most dancers have no idea how to follow a conductor, all they know is about getting all their steps in. So tempos will have an ebb and flow to them (and there's nothing wrong with that.) Remember there was a lot of music produced before the days of clicks. It's up to the dancers to hit their marks, and their tempos will help determine that. The conductors that I worked with faced the dancers and really let the dancers dictate the time throughout the tunes, then the band locked in with the conductor. It's a real art form, and it sounds like you know how to do it.

Talk to the MD before or after a rehearsal (alone, away from the rest of the band dancers) a little diplomacy will go a long way. Getting bogged down in assigning fault or blame leads nowhere fast (except maybe the unemployment line.) As everyone has said, tape it. Lose your pride and acknowledge that there is a chance, that your time has gotten a little weird from the time off, it's possible (tough to admit, but possible.) Has the MD worked with dancers a lot? If not it's simpler for him-her to blame you than look in the mirror. Help that person figure it out. Is there a conductor, or just an MD? Does the conductor have experience with dancers?

But back to you... If the tunes are bogging down, try stripping your grooves down a bit, sometimes that can give a tune a nice push. And if there's tapping involved, they usually want LESS notes in order to stay out of their way. Forget about what's exactly "on the page" and just make the music feel good to the dancers.

Listen to the soundtracks to "Jelly's Last Jam," w/ Brian Grice (he was a MASTER at playing with dancers!) and "Bring Da Noize..." w/ Leroy Clouden (a minimal funk master who puts the beat in EXACTLY the right place every time!) Omar Hakim NAILED playing with a dance production with Madonna (check out the DVD "The Girlie Show: Live Down Under," masterful drumming, and a tough gig!)

Listen to some playbacks with the MD (and maybe one of the dance principals.) The fact that you are going to that length to nail it shows where your heart is at. Sounds like a small band, and a small cast, it's very fixable. The playbacks (and observations made during listening by you and the MD) should make everything very clear, friendly, and fixable.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!
MSG