House of Drumming.com

Been thinking about this some over this past weekend...what are the key things that separate the greatest drummers (or musicians, or artists more broadly...) from those who are merely "good", or even "very good." How would you go about measuring that?

It's both qualitative (not quantitative-unless you're measuring fastest single strokes WFD style, or album sales, or number of artists played with, etc...but where's the fun in that? ) and open to subjective viewpoints; nevertheless, after you talk to enough fellow musicians, and listen to enough music, a lot of the same names start appearing in different people's own views of who "the greats" are, if not "the best."

Now, I know some people don't like the concept of there being "the best" in music, because it's impossible to measure objectively, there are so many intangible things that go into people's own subjective evaluations of who "the best" is, and it seems ultimately, kind of pointless. I understand and sympathize with all of that sentiment-which is why I hold it to be true that there are many truly great drummers, musicians, and artists, who stand head and shoulders above all the rest in terms of artistic creativity, ease of expression, stylistic versatility, adaptability, and groundbreaking innovation; yet I also hold it to be true that no ONE drummer, musician, or artist in general is objectively "the best."

Drummers know the names. Buddy Rich. Joe Morello. Tony Williams. Elvin Jones. Billy Cobham. Steve Gadd. Jeff Porcaro. Vinnie Colaiuta. Dave Weckl. Dennis Chambers. It seems like a big list, and I've definitely left a lot of people out, but the thing is, when you think of how many people in the world who are highly skillful, solid drummers, the list of "the greats" is actually quite small in comparison.

So, returning to my original question...what separates these truly great drummers, and others not listed, from the rest of the pack? Partly a rhetorical question, but also a question that I think our answers in this thread could lend some insight into what it means to be a musical artist.

I don't know man, but there is A LOT of great, really !!!
I mean, as we're drummers here, Dave Grohl is great at what he does, it's what I think anyway...
Same for Steve Ferrone, Jojo, Kenny Aronoff, Shawn Pelton, Steve Jordan, Buddy Williams, Charley Drayton, Fish Fisher, and so on...

The music is the judge, not the skills, it's what I think.

Musicality.

Imagination, taste, conviction, enough facility to communicate their ideas clearly, and, perhaps, opportunity to develop around those who can help their gifts grow.

Exposure.

People can be performing at incredible levels all over the world, but will not be considered 'great' until they make it
on the international scene.

Virg was pushing boundaries on a international level in front of a very limited audience in the late eighties
and into the nineties before relocating to L.A. and getting exposed to the world.

Fellow Dane Jan Lysdahl has performed on about 500 albums and has a groove somewhere between Gadd and Keltner.
I suspect VERY few HOD'ers will have even heard him play.

Swede Per Lindvall has performed on 1500+ albums but would not in any form be considered alongside the 'greats' although he is
recognized in limited circles as a 'great'.

Chance, circumstances and personality.

More and more I find genuine talent to be the big Divider between good and Truly Great. Don't get fooled, you can not compensate for the gift that people like Buddy or Tal Wilkenfeld etc are born with. If you would take every step that Dave Weckl took, and practice as much as he did , and play with the same cats as he did….you still would not be [as good] as him. I teach on a daily basis and I find it amazing to this day how some people just 'get it' on the spot. Age, 'race', gender and upbringing don't matter all that. Talent does. To make it in the bizz takes other things too of course. Like the 'desire' to be the greatest….Guys like Miles, Vinnie, Gadd, Virgil etc. gave up EVERYTHING for their music.

It's a perfect storm. You need some amount of natural ability, intelligence, a killer work ethic, huge ears, an environment in which to develop all those things, and the right attitude. And then you need a little bit of luck to push it all over the edge.

Lots of people have some of those things. Few people have all of them.

Miles said that in the end everything comes down to the ability to 'envision' or 'imagine' sound/notes without being dependent of your instrument. Good players are good because they practice, genius players are so because they hear everything [right]. Beethoven was stone-deaf when he wrote some of his masterpieces… how big is the world in your head? How long is your story? Do you hear stuff that other people just don't 'hear'? But it is Weckl who always comes with supportive remarks like 'there is a place for everyone in the business' or 'sure, try to be the best in the world, why not?'. And I think it was Vinnie who said that the most successful [studio] players are not the best musicians but the best psychologists…haha!

Morgenthaler wrote:Exposure.

People can be performing at incredible levels all over the world, but will not be considered 'great' until they make it
on the international scene.

Virg was pushing boundaries on a international level in front of a very limited audience in the late eighties
and into the nineties before relocating to L.A. and getting exposed to the world.

Fellow Dane Jan Lysdahl has performed on about 500 albums and has a groove somewhere between Gadd and Keltner.
I suspect VERY few HOD'ers will have even heard him play.

Swede Per Lindvall has performed on 1500+ albums but would not in any form be considered alongside the 'greats' although he is
recognized in limited circles as a 'great'.

But you're talking about fame here, there is great in every countries, it's not because you're not popular in the USA that you're not great.

I know who Per is, he's among the great, and I'm sure that most of great session drummers in the world heard about him, and maybe more.

It's better to have Per's schedule in the shadow of the fame, than being famous and not be that busy...

Exposure is great for Mike Johnson's like, but for musicians, it's great still, but not that necessary if you're looking to have a career as solo artist.

Rodge wrote:But you're talking about fame here, there is great in every countries

Yes - that's my point. The issue pretty much comes down to semantics.
JR or Ricky Lawson are/were not necessarily better or 'greater' session pop drummers than Per, but the fame makes us speak of them
as 'the greats'. The exposure (the fame) is what makes them greater than others. Obviously they are greater than a ton of other drummers, but you get my point.


The greatest early 90s era heavy/funk drummer is Dion Derek, but his level of (= lack of) exposure keeps him totally out of that conversation.