Groove Freedom App

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Steve Holmes
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Re: Groove Freedom App

Postby Steve Holmes » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:14 am

bensdrums wrote:and there's not really a mention of, "hey, it's pretty important you go check out [this guy] on [this record] or with [these guys], he's using this thing I'm teaching you to do in a really musical or creative way" or, "listen to this tune or idea, here's how you could phrase this lick or apply it." So what you end up with is generation of players that essentially aspire to chopping out on YouTube with a backing track of chords that lends itself to drum blowing. There's no sense that the whole idea of playing drums is to play music and interact in a meaningful way ..


Yes to all this.
I remember seeing a vid where Mike said he didn't want to play gigs anymore and focus on teaching - which is totally fine! The downside is his teaching might lack lessons on music application aspects which is so important. Watching 20 seconds of the Chaffee video and he mentions the bass player and how that affects the bass drum pattern. Mind you I have not watched a lot of MJ's vids so it's possible he talks about that stuff and I'm not aware. Being able to adjust what and how you play drums with a band in different venues with different people is a WHOLE other thing that takes years and years to develop.

Beng able to play and support music is literally why drumming exists. This is part of the reason why I released the Altered concert video - its important to me to not only be the YT drum lesson guy, but to also show the aspect of me that plays and makes music (for better or for worse).

Plus, playing music is not an exclusive skill! Of course it will affect how you drum yourself in the shed. Guys that gig all the time and have great feel sound that way by themselves. Plus it helps with creating phrasing and form in your improvising. Helps build dynamics and touch from putting in your time playing quiet gigs. Helps motivate you to play your grooves a certain way because your default place is underneath music, not with an iPad. Like it or not, it's all part of the drummer experience, and that fact that there's a lot of folks that just want to entertain themselves at home doesn't change that

Yes Paul it's harder but not impossible. Things are different but there's no shortage of musicians that want to play music, there's just a shortage of ways to profit from it.
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nomsgmusic
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Re: Groove Freedom App

Postby nomsgmusic » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:38 pm

Steve,
I could not agree MORE with everything you just wrote! AMEN!!!
And you are right (sorry Paul,) it IS possible to play music and drums for a living. I'm living proof!
But it's hard and getting harder!!!! (But what isn't?)
I'm one of the lucky ones, I play music and put smiles on people's faces (for a living.)
MSG
[url][/url]bluejayrecords.com/drumatic
[url][/url]vicfirth.com/artists/mark_griffith.html
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Paul Marangoni
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Re: Groove Freedom App

Postby Paul Marangoni » Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:00 pm

nomsgmusic wrote:And you are right (sorry Paul,) it IS possible to play music and drums for a living. I'm living proof!


It's possible, sure, but it's also possible to win the lottery, and there's even more proof of that.

Mark, if you were just starting out TODAY, do you honestly think you would be able to find enough work merely playing? I mean, just playing, no teaching, no writing, just playing music in a band on stage (and not in a church either).

There are gigs to be had, but fewer and fewer every day. Unless you're willing to do some serious suffering and live below the poverty line, I don't think it's possible to string together enough work in a year to cover rent, let alone decent meals. It's always been difficult, but at least it used to be possible. Almost every nightclub and restaurant used to have a stage where there would be a band playing a few nights every week. It's not that common anymore.

What's left? Cruise-ship gigs? Cirque do Soleil? Ice Capades? Tribute bands? Ex-pat clubs in Singapore?

We'll see how things play out with revenue streams for the consumption of music in the next few years. I'm still crossing my fingers that they get the copyright revisions worked out, but I'm not holding my breath.
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nomsgmusic
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Re: Groove Freedom App

Postby nomsgmusic » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:17 am

Paul Marangoni wrote:
nomsgmusic wrote:And you are right (sorry Paul,) it IS possible to play music and drums for a living. I'm living proof!


It's possible, sure, but it's also possible to win the lottery, and there's even more proof of that.

Mark, if you were just starting out TODAY, do you honestly think you would be able to find enough work merely playing? I mean, just playing, no teaching, no writing, just playing music in a band on stage (and not in a church either).

There are gigs to be had, but fewer and fewer every day. Unless you're willing to do some serious suffering and live below the poverty line, I don't think it's possible to string together enough work in a year to cover rent, let alone decent meals. It's always been difficult, but at least it used to be possible. Almost every nightclub and restaurant used to have a stage where there would be a band playing a few nights every week. It's not that common anymore.

What's left? Cruise-ship gigs? Cirque do Soleil? Ice Capades? Tribute bands? Ex-pat clubs in Singapore?

We'll see how things play out with revenue streams for the consumption of music in the next few years. I'm still crossing my fingers that they get the copyright revisions worked out, but I'm not holding my breath.



There is a big assumption in your question. Was it EVER possible to make a good living while only doing live club gigs? (And nothing else.)

As a semi-related fact. I was around a bunch of the popular big "name" hair metal bands in the 80's, and while many of them were on MTV, doing international tours, being "rock stars." Many of them worked other jobs when not touring with "the band."

The ones that didn't do other things, quickly went by the way-side. They were the guys that went out for six weeks and made 40K in a month, and then did nothing for many of the months to come, while acting like rock stars. Just stupid! 40 grand a month = wonderful! 40 grand a year (while spending like a drunken sailor) = hard times and poverty.

Same thing for athletes who spend a few years in the NBA (bankruptcy in ex-NBA players is HUGE!) or any big time sports league. NBA minimum is somewhere around 140,000. Make that for 3 years, and you are NOT set for life, you gotta do something. The average stay in the NFL is less than two years, that $$$ won't last forever. The same thing goes for "flavor of the month" or "one gig wonder, sidemen" musicians.

When I have talked to many of the "old timer musicians" about making a living as a musician, I have been told that it has ALWAYS included (for most,) something (hopefully) musical to do during the day to create income. Publishing, teaching, arranging, music-copying, studio-work, club-date stuff, r&b gigs, and many had non musical gigs that they didn't talk about.

The first time I saw Bernard Purdie play, he was playing a WEDDING in Delaware (I doubt that was the only one he ever did.) Vernell Fournier worked for Sears. Roy Haynes will tell you that the most $$$ he ever made was playing (mostly brushes) with (singer) Sarah Vaughn. Cozy Cole opened a drum school. A top tier jazz drummer now teaching at Berklee was a busy substitute teacher in NJ, and he wasn't the only one. Numerous guys wrote books, did videos, taught privately or at schools. Elvin taught, Tony taught, Higgins taught, etc etc etc... Simon runs a studio, Weckl does some production work, right? Erskine teaches at UCLA.

Other musicians? Bassist, Tim LeFevere did a ton of cruiseship gigs. Guitarist, Marvin Sewell worked at Tower Records (so did saxophonist Jorge Sylvester.) I did wedding gigs with saxophonists Roger Byam, Jerry Weldon, Eric Alexander, and singers that toured with Alicia Keyes and Paul Simon (and one of them also worked for the state working on roads.) Many musicians have invested in real-estate (and are landlords.) I could go on and on. The people who have diversified themselves have succeeded.

Starting out today only playing music at clubs at night, and making a living? That means you are doing nothing during the day. In my opinion, very few people can succeed that way. That's a heck of a sense of entitlement. But.... If you really want to do that, you HAVE to keep your expenses down, and bank your income for "slow times." And how many younger people today are really capable of doing that?

Soooo... Possible to make a living as a well rounded hard working musician? Yes. Become overly wealthy? Doubtful. Making a living as a strictly "live playing" club drummer? (Doing NOTHING else?) Was that ever really possible???

Whenever guys (that we all know) have talked about doing every gig possible, and learning styles, what they are talking about is diversifying yourself so you can WORK all the time, make a living, (and learn, through playing those gigs.)

My point remains, it's HARD, and getting HARDER (we agree there!) But so is running ANY small business (which is what you are as a free-lance drummer.) You gotta be working almost 24-7, and not only work hard, but work (and live) SMART! And I think you definitely have to be in a MAJOR metropolitan area. I tell all of my students this same stuff.

Regarding the copyright stuff that you feel strongly about (thank you!!!!!) What do you think about the new Jay-Z endeavor Tidal?

But we have really strayed from that internet drum teaching guy. But if you read closely, I think a lot of what we are talking about does (sort of) apply. But based on the second and third hand stuff I've heard and read about, I don't think I would agree with many of his "teaching methods."

Never done a church gig, a capade gig, been to Singapore, Cirque does sound interesting though,
MSG
[url][/url]bluejayrecords.com/drumatic
[url][/url]vicfirth.com/artists/mark_griffith.html
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Paul Marangoni
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Re: Groove Freedom App

Postby Paul Marangoni » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:27 am

I hope Jay-Z's Tidal thing is successful. I don't know all the details, but they claim a better cut for the content creators, and that, in turn, would end up filtering down to the musicians.

Everything you've stated is 100% spot on Mark.
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langmick
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Re: Groove Freedom App

Postby langmick » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:49 am

Happened upon this and it is illustrative of some of the things that I find interesting, the personal dynamic.

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Morgenthaler
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Re: Groove Freedom App

Postby Morgenthaler » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:25 am

Thx Langmick, I really enjoyed that interview clip.
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bclarkio
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Re: Groove Freedom App

Postby bclarkio » Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:37 pm

A long time ago on the old forum, someone posted, "There is a place in this world for every kind of drummer." That phrase returns to me over and over.

The important thing is just to do it, in whatever capacity. I believe the benefits of music, and drumming in particular, are enormous.

Anyone can bang on some drums and get immediate benefits. I can feel how it enhances my linguistic and improvisational abilities, my coordination and self confidence, and helps me deal with stress and maintain my mood.

I believe I see great enthusiasm in Mike's students and crew; it feels like they have a share in his success.

I personally agree with the comments here regarding a more musical approach to the instruction, but it's such a different world now.

Granted, I'm an old fart, but when I listen to some of the music my children enjoy, it often doesn't sound like people are playing it together.

Everything is so heavily produced and perfect sounding that even when it's not obvious that it's not real drums, bass, strings, etc., it's hard to tell for sure that it's not sampled.

Now, even the vocals are stylistically played with electronically.

How is that musical environment going to make people want to go out and play together?

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