Perfect metronomic time

mcraeh
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Re: Perfect metronomic time

Postby mcraeh » Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:43 pm

Great responses, well turns out this app for my kid had a bpm of 54, pretty slow. appears i was on it which displays green in the middle. that indicates you are on time, but from there it measure you in millisecs, really hard to get a zero btw, that is what I believe you are trying to lower is the millisecs. this is something for kids to get focused with and you hold a little button thing and clap. so not quite like the stuff me do with metronomes, but what I have learned from this (Steve Thanks!) is to start using lower tempos to practice with, my band is mostly around 110 to 140, 54 is something I never really approached before, at least with general practicing stuff. Playing at 54 with just quarters is pretty tough.
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Pocketplayer
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Re: Perfect metronomic time

Postby Pocketplayer » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:12 pm

It is conversations like this that allow for a really potent question to someone like DW or VC or...
"Dave, on the 10,000 hour thing...when/did you deviate too far from the groove to realize you
were learning a new groove and thus a new element from where you started? How did that process
evolve in your personal learning curve? Did it throw you? Were you aware of it of just flowed with
it until it worked itself out? Did you lose confidence in the process? What I am really saying here
is Dave, how the hell did you progress at such a high level so early on? Was it your diet?"

DW: "What?...sorry bro, reading a text."

Give me some depth baby over the ordinary! Interviewers...do your freakin' homework already!

HOD ain't dead...like music, it flows up and down and the biz itself is in chaos...it's a generational
thing. The torch is being passed but to whom? Who is the 1990 Dave Weckl and Vinnie today?
That's where the energy is and will always be. When you are 25, a 40yo is ancient! Especially
so today where there is almost no sense of history in a "I WANT IT NOW" culture...and even then
it's too late!

[Thanks to a HOD member's feedback in a PM, my comment about Dave above was meant to get
into his early learning development. I found the 10,000 hour comment insightful and wondered how
Dave or VC or ? dealt with a very real dilemma sitting alone shedding on their craft. It also was to
show how a thread can unpack a stream of thought with many different member comments to
come up with a core question layered with a lot of depth. It also had to do with this idea of
studying the greats and how an interviewer, if reading this thread could come up with some
really good questions over the typical..."Tell me Dave, how do you have such good time?"
I love the 'behind the scenes' stuff, usually watch the 'making of the movie' and enjoy it more
than the movie itself...process fascinates me and the art of asking questions to draw out depth.
My attempt at humor with Dave saying "What..." had to do with a question I asked at a clinic
related to his process and he just either didn't understand because he was so focused as a learner
or didn't want to share any vulnerability or ???...I walked away thinking he just lives on a different
level than I do and my struggles working on something was not an issue for him.
]
Jeff Porcaro Groove Master
http://jeffporcaro.blogspot.com
chris perra
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Re: Perfect metronomic time

Postby chris perra » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:35 pm

If you want good time. Play to a click as much as you can. I made a change about 6 months ago to play live/gig wise with a click for every song.

It's made a massive difference... Before, there would be two muscle memory worlds one where in a controlled studio scenario with a click and another playing live which wasn't as solid. Now for me they are the same. I was doing 70% live, and 30% studio so the amount of time I actually played to a click wasn't very much in comparison to live. Now I'm close to 100% in every situation except teaching and It's made a huge difference.

The biggest problem live was always being pushed or pulled by others.. People feel time differently, playing to a click gives me a solid anchor to focus on an everyone else conforms. At first I was worried it would make things stiff ect and it took some time for my band to iron out our timing muscle memory of speeding up a bit, or realizing song start tempos were different each night. But now it's such a massive improvement.

It's also made studio recording better as well as everything is consistent muscle memory and focus wise.

The thing to remember about time is it's relative to something else. Practicing building perfect time builds your grid an internal time center on your own but that kinda goes out the window if you are playing with others that push and pull you. Playing to a click is a way to insure you are as in time as you can be.

A guy like Weckl or Colaiuta has most likely played so much to a click in their lives that it's now second nature muscle memory wise in every possible permutation music wise.

Steve with the on off click thing has that improved your timing playing with others? Or its it something that has definitely improved your timing on it's own but not necessarily transferable to playing with others as your focus would be different playing with people.
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electrizer
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Re: Perfect metronomic time

Postby electrizer » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:35 am

chris perra wrote:Before, there would be two muscle memory worlds one where in a controlled studio scenario with a click and another playing live which wasn't as solid. Now for me they are the same. I was doing 70% live, and 30% studio so the amount of time I actually played to a click wasn't very much in comparison to live. Now I'm close to 100% in every situation except teaching and It's made a huge difference.

The biggest problem live was always being pushed or pulled by others.. People feel time differently, playing to a click gives me a solid anchor to focus on an everyone else conforms. At first I was worried it would make things stiff ect and it took some time for my band to iron out our timing muscle memory of speeding up a bit, or realizing song start tempos were different each night. But now it's such a massive improvement.


This is really interesting. How long did it take you to get accustomed to playing live with a click? Also, did your bandmates notice any difference? Did they complain of being constrained tempo-wise ("too fast" or "too slow") in relation to your playing without the click?
chris perra
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Re: Perfect metronomic time

Postby chris perra » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:00 am

At first it felt a little weird, for me and the band. There were section of songs that I found I rushed that I didn't notice previously. The band could really feel where they were pushing or pulling.. Mostly pushing and it took awhile for us to get used to a click.

The cool thing was that once it was defined that if something felt weird it was up to everyone to play to me knowing that i was playing to a click.

That my version of tempo and pocket was the closest to being in time as I was playing to a click so if it's weird or off really focus on the drummer and know that that is where things will be in time the most. You should do that anyway but some times the drummer isn't in time or rushes in the chorus or drags in the verses a bit. By playing to a click that irons everything out.

Before playing to a click live if I was playing with someone who felt things on top or behind I would have to try and hold it down and trust that my pocket or time center was where it should be. But sometimes it's hard to have something always not totally in sync with me and it could pull me, like a heard mentality, you don't want to hold it down so much that its starts sound weird like you are fighting with your band for the pocket.

But with a click, I can focus on that and tune out the pulling or pushing and they notice if they are out from time to time and conform.

The hard part sometimes is providing a click when they are playing by themselves musically so it doesn't sound like I'm playing 1'4s that's where things can get off very fast. Also getting them to wait till I give them a starting tempo can be tough in a band that doesn't have setlists.


I configured a crazy click setup using a netbook, Ableton live and a DJ controller to control Abelton live so I can do tap tempos ect if need be.
cjbdrm
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Re: Perfect metronomic time

Postby cjbdrm » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:08 am

I'll offer my experience for what it's worth...

I've been playing to click live off and on since 1992. Recently, I started playing to a click live for a country band I was playing in. Before using the click, the singer and guitarist were always complaining that the song was too slow or too fast...one would tell me to speed up while the other was telling me to slow down! It was very frustrating. I suggested that we play to a click to keep things consistent. It took a few weeks to adjust, but the finger pointing stopped immediately. Of course, they were rushing like crazy. Our method was to agree to a tempo in rehearsal and play it that tempo on the gig. If they felt it was too slow or too fast, they would ask me to adjust after the song, but they never blamed me again. Practicing to a metronome always improves my time and playing with the click live improves it as well. If the band members are listening to you, it works out- but if they're focused on themselves, they get off quickly.

I used a metronome app on my iphone called 'Tempo'. I highly recommend it. You can make setlists, etc. Great for practice too. I hooked up the headphone output on the iphone to my small Mackie mixer and would listen through the headphone output of the mixer- with the click mixed in with my own drums.
chris perra
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Re: Perfect metronomic time

Postby chris perra » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:19 am

Another vote for Tempo. I was using that before moving to a netbook and Ableton.

If you are in a band that uses setlists it's killer. My only issue was the tap tempo on and Android doesn't work great for me when trying to tap tempo a song live to join in. I think it's better for an Ipad.

The other upgrade of sorts was that with Ableton I created custom clicks for each song. Cowbell shaker stuff with appropriate subdivisions.
That really helped for slower songs under 80 bpm.
Julián Fernández
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Re: Perfect metronomic time

Postby Julián Fernández » Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:50 pm

Chris, would you post a clip of your band now that you´re playing to a click? All the members agreed of much better felt everything? Cheers!
chris perra
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Re: Perfect metronomic time

Postby chris perra » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:28 pm

I'll have to shoot one. I don't have anything recently. It'll be good to do..maybe I'm totally delusional haha.
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Odd-Arne Oseberg
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Re: Perfect metronomic time

Postby Odd-Arne Oseberg » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:17 am

My daily morning warm-up has always ben 60 bpm until I moved it too the kit. Then I pushed it down to 50. That's how we used to work on rhythm in ear-training class, too.

I just started using the Pro Metronome app, which has a training feature. Lots of features for any situation, really.

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