House of Drumming.com

WARNING:Long winded post ahead!

There's not an awful lot of discussion on HOD these days like there used to be, it's mostly posting videos of great players. That's great but maybe this topic will be interesting and hopefully enlightening. I'm very curious about something guys. My biggest concern and focus has always been and still is to try and play as precisely as possible. To play as precisely as say Kaide or Will Andrews for example, not a beat out of place. Maybe in my next lifetime.

I mean that every single stroke, (I'm really talking about snare or kick) is placed completely in the right spot, every time from start to finish. I'm conscious of it all the time. I can be on a gig (live with no click), I'm nailing the song and feeling good but then I might place a stroke or two that sounds late, kind of out of sync for that short moment, and suddenly my bubble bursts and I get disappointed. Instead of thinking how good the rest of the playing was, all I think about is that late stroke. My glass becomes half empty instead of half full.

If for instance it was being recorded, I'd find it difficult to listen to it, because in my mind, that late stroke has ruined it for me. With my regular gigs and recent regular practising I'm happy that I'm getting a lot more consistent. It's not quite there yet but very close.

When late strokes happen, it's not a metronomic issue (unless it's a very slow song) but rather a technique thing as far as I'm concerned which is what I'm ironing out. It's a fine line between being relaxed, and too relaxed where maybe my grip loosens a bit too much and the beat is late. Conversely, my grip might be a little too tight which can also make strokes late. I suspect this is the same reason for others with this issue. So I'm constantly fighting myself to keep my grip with just the right amount of tension. I would love to get to that point where I never have to think about it and can go on a gig knowing that every stroke will be bang on.

I know in the grand scheme of things it's not always that important, i.e, if you're on a rock n roll gig and everyone's having a good time. But it bothers me whatever the gig is because I hate any sloppiness in my playing and I do my best to eradicate that even though I don't always succeed.


That said...I do hear late strokes quite often by even top players on recordings and gigs, and colleagues of mine some of whom are doing more prestigious gigs than me, so in a way, it makes me feel somewhat better, lol. I've even heard Vinnie do it.

My reason for the thread is to ask, how does this affect you when it happens? I say 'when it happens', I mean I know there are players here that it won't happen as they have flawless time, but I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has hiccups with timing.

Does it bother you when it happens? Does it bother you when you listen back? If you're in the studio, you're in the middle of tracking and you know you played one or more late strokes, do you let it ride, do you get pissed at yourself and want to restart, or just think that it can be quantized after?

.

Great topic.

Most times it doesn't bother me at all if it's within reason. Usually, it happens in a live situation where
you/me/the drummer in action can make subsequent adjustments to make up for it.

A great example is the Gadd/Weckl/Colaiuta performance. Yes, that one. One of Gadd's fills is quite late
so Vinnie and Dave really have to adjust their groove to re-align with Gadd. My quick analysis of the situation
is that Weckl is so out there in his fill leading up to it, that, due to monitor issues or something of that nature
Gadd simply isn't quite sure where Weckl is - PLUS Gadd pulls off a fill that requires a lot of technical prowess
that perhaps in the spur of the moment surprises even him.

@ 4:54 --->

Great find Jeppe, I never noticed that before!

This Dennis Chambers one, the opening couple of bars are sloppy. And on the encore at 3:39 the shit really hits the fan, lol. Although to be fair I think it's the Letterman band at fault. Messy though.

1) I get disappointed. Instead of thinking how good the rest of
the playing was, all I think about is that late stroke. My glass becomes
half empty instead of half full...

2) When late strokes happen, it's not a metronomic issue (unless it's a very
slow song) but rather a technique thing as far as I'm concerned which is what
I'm ironing out...

3)I'm constantly fighting myself to keep my grip with just the right amount
of tension. I would love to get to that point where I never have to think about
it and can go on a gig knowing that every stroke will be bang on.

Jeppe...dude, how you honed this particular part of THAT video is great! I walk by faith
because I still don't see it..I FEEL something a little off, but never questioned it! That
performance is insane to this day!

Kaide is a meter beast...fluid motion!

I made a thread (not sure if I kept it) that reminds me of this about a year ago.
It was about the challenge of mind execution and physical execution. Not sure this
connects fully Rudy, but it had to do with not losing meter/time, but physically, my
execution did not meet what my mind wanted...and therefore it FELT wrong, but then
I realized nobody else could ever know what I intended, and if I played through it, the
execution was irrelevant...it was ME that judged the result. That said, I wanted control
over what I intended, so I woodshed what I was trying to pull off until I got it consistently
or I dropped it (for now).

In the end, it was not being fully comfortable with the composition (my parts) and
trying to throw too much into the song for some psychological reason...maybe feeling
insecure, wanting some great reaction, perfectionism, etc... We are performing
complex physiological executions and our inner state is very important...what's going
with us (tired, stressed, anxious, hungry, angry) which all impacts our playing.
Meditation beforehand can help a lot...in whatever way works...most drummers "warm-up"
beforehand which is a form of meditation to get centered and loose and relaxed.

(I might have totally missed what you are saying here, but this came to mind below:
eat the melon, spit out the seeds)

I can only share what was the core issue for me Rudy...and it was the foundation of the
groove. Imo, this can be overlooked, but there is a pyramid to drumming that Kenny Arnoff
stated many years ago (not sure his influence for this);

(think pyramid...bottom up)

Create
Groove
Time
Beat

They all build off each other, and if we gloss over one step, it impacts the next.
Most of us want to jump to the create step (this always happens when I had students).
I would have them play a simple time beat...response, "OK, got it..." Ummm, no you
don't! Your playing the notes, yes, but there is not consistent time or feel (groove).
In this case, their Time is "clock consistent" but they don't own it...it takes years
to really own time.

Not to pimp my site, but this is covered in the section, "Beat Placement" when
analyzing Jeff's playing and he discusses this in an MI video as well (playing on top
of the beat, behind and ahead of it). This is what I refer to as owning the time.
(from a MD article many years ago...)
http://jeffporcaro.blogspot.com/2006/12/blog-post.html

One solution for me?
1, 3, 5 min exercises of playing a groove/beat with NO fills and recording yourself.
Much harder than most think! The feel at 30 secs will slightly differ at 1 min, and
so on as you get to the 4 min mark. It is a discipline to get so inside a groove that
this foundation is rock solid. Then...repeat, but alter the dynamics; hats and BD
consistent, snare either softer or louder and so on. Peter Erskine (older/wiser)
has a video of this idea that is great...one of those vid's where you look for this great
insight, and he covers something very basic and you think, "It's Peter Erskine,
maybe I'm missing something here!" The point is we look to more technical aspects
when our foundation is not centered which subsequently impacts everything else.

Just my $0.01 thought...

One of the big things that changed this issue for me was seeing a Weckl clinic when he was changing his approach. He talked about TYony and his grip.

Then I started to Gruberize my self a little, and with the help of JoJo got the Moeller really going. I had messed around with it before, and had some real breakthroughs. Only after I worked consciously through the JoJo stuff, and at really slow tempos, did I feel I had my hands in control. Really slow tempos. I can't stress that enough.

It also sounds like you are overthinking things, perhaps because you aren't confident in your grip and that's leading to internal tension that is causing an imbalance.

Grip needs to be figured out and forgotten to move on.

It's like knowing how to add and then moving on to college algebra and calculus. You need to know your rudiments of math like a math ninja to excel in those classes.

Never had issues with these things until lately. This means that for me at least it's mental.

We have to be focused and fully in it. Being stiff and unfocused which quite often is about basic physical things like rest and hydration make it that much harder.

Form a skill point of view I believe that there's often some middle ground work missing. It's amazing what can be accomplished if the most basic things are mastered on a high level, but going from that and building slowly towards something more involved is a different level of work than just jumping there.

I think many look at only the physics of development to much. The mental work is where it's at. It's a challenge to identify these things and many of the best at certain things get it through playing experience. They often can't explain maybe just because being that aware is just normal for them, because that's how much they care. Maybe they don't understand that some people need help to get to that level of consciousness. It's an attitude and this is one of my teaching secrets. One of the really big ones.

To own time, working slow has always been the thing, but it has very diminished value without the right type of focus. We're all different there, so again it takes time or the guidance of a very experienced and intuitive teacher to recognize the fine points.

I was at a rehearsal with the big band last night and one of the symptoms of getting well again is how picky I'm getting with time feel. I was always a time guy more than one with good harmonic ears anyway. Playing with and stretching the time, especially aas a guitar player has always been the main thing for me.

It's all here, really. How deep we interpret these ideas are a different thing altogether, though.

I play to a click live for all my gigs... It's really evened things out for me..

I use a shaker and cowbell. Suited for the tempo and groove of the song.

Once and awhile I'll be in a situation that I don't use a click.. Muscle memory wise I'm still in the zone form playing with a click.

Be carefull to have the click at a low volume though as you can bake your ears having cranked all night.

Recording yourself always will help immensely...

I found going through stages of seemingly trying to play to a click, like there was alot of effort going on.. Also your band will alos have to get used to it...that can effect late hits etc..

Over time I needed less click volume, also I relaxed more,.. things became alot more consistent..

I call it a mental fart.

Thanks for the replies guys, quite interesting. Using a click wouldn't be practical on my particular regular gig, but I have used one on others. Definitely agree with recording yourself. I do overthink and over analyse things. I can't help it, it's just something I do. But this thread isn't about me, it's just general questions I'm throwing out.

Pocketplayer, that Erskine video is great. I've seen it before but was well worth a second look. Love it when he
says, "Now, it's easy to swing a whole band with..*proceeds to play big band style busily around kit*....that's fine. But can you swing a whole band with..*plays just jazz rhythm gently on closed hihat*... if you can swing a band with just one stick....then I think you know how to swing". I could listen to Erskine talking all day, so relaxing.

Yes I remember you made a thread about a year ago, something to do with you not being completetly comfortable at tempos around 90bpm.

Ahhh, yes, so I did make something regarding this topic.
Specific BPM are problems for me...first time I was in studio
at 21, I could NOT play a crescendo tom roll (most crucial part
of the song according to the artist) at the tempo given.
It was the TITLE song for the album!

HUMBLING! Embarrassing! Emasculating! Caused doubt and
I wanted to run...one of those life moments (fight or flight)
and I woodshed tom rolls after to never experience that again!
I remember it like yesterday, "Give me a Russ Kunkel feel...play it
like Russ Kunkel Joe...come on man!"

The Erskine vid reminds me of Gadd's depth...does not have
to play a lot of notes to own the groove. In that classic MD
BR vid, there have been MANY comments...one comes to mind
and that has to do with how the other players in the BR band
reacted to Steve's playing over VC and DW...the lead sax player's
reaction when Gadd held court...accurate observation? Who
really knows what someone else is feeling, but I tend to believe this
was a valid reaction...Steve makes others feel safe and a drummer
has to do this as the orchestra leader...not something we hear a lot
about in instructional DVD's. Steve, Peter...tribal leaders in our world
of boom!

This always kills me...so LAID back and feels Soooo GooooD!
Gadd with Chuck Rainey--music sex really.



Also, New York Connection...Masterpiece! Could listen to
this all day everyday on repeat! Snare sound helps as well...
boxy pop is perfect for me.