Building Vocabulary- time frame?

[YamahaPlayer]

I feel like it takes me months to put something into my performing vocabulary..... And I'm not talking about a really difficult chop.

Any suggestions for performance retention

Retention is purely a matter of qualitative repetition. In context particularly is important. Break the lick down to it's basic elements, the basic strokes with that make it up. Learn it reverse, left hand lead, within different time contexts (16ths, triplets, quintuplets, etc). However...

I think part of the problem is you're thinking of it as "this lick". It may be you're caught up on the sticking, or the sound. Either way I would suggest trying to get away from that type of thinking - patternized, modular "drop and plop" lick playing.


If you can internalize the concept, it no longer becomes "this lick" or "that lick", it becomes just playing musically and expressing a musical idea at whim. Learn to think melodically and harmonically about what is going on in the context.
You will find after awhile in your conversation on drums that you play that given lick and it comes out beautiful or you may never play it ever. Either way who cares?

Think of it like a kid who learns a new big word and try's to use it whenever he speaks. Just learn the word, and move on. If you learn what and why the word is, then you'll inevitably learn about more words, how they apply to context and when the most effective place to use them is.

This is in large part the concept behind gridding, being able to place an accent, diddle or flam in any given position of any given note passage or rudiment. It allows you the flexibility to not think about what your hands (and feet) are doing, and let them do the job of translating the musical ideas in your mind to the sticks on the drums.

Try and internalize it - "It's all just singles or doubles"


BTW - Adults learn the fastest. Particularly when it comes to internalizing complex concepts. Kids just seem like they learn faster because their knowledge base is particularly small, you don't see the learning in adults as much because their knowledge base is already so vast. Also most adults just don't have the quantity of comparable time to put into learning like kids do.

[cjbdrm]

[Jim Richman]

Play your lick at all tempos. But if you play it with a band, it will be a lick, and no one will care except maybe some drummers. If you have trouble playing your lick, it means that it shouldn't be in the song. Play for the music.

[nomsgmusic]

I was talking with Steve Smith a while ago about this. I had been working on a specific Chaffee "thing," and while I could play it, I was having a hard time "applying" it, live with a band, I was bummed. I asked him how long it took him to apply some of the stuff he had worked on with Gary, and how long it took for some of "that stuff" to sneak into his playing. He smiled and said, "I'll let you know when that happens ." At the time he was more than 20+ years removed from lessons with Gary. I was amazed. It takes a long time for some stuff to "come out" naturally and in the right musical context.

I asked Vinnie the same question once. He told me how lucky he was to have Zappa's gig as a "workshop" for those complex drumming ideas/concepts. And went on to say that you have to have a place where you can (try to) "musically" apply the stuff, and then have it be a safe environment that if (and when) you screw something up, it's OK.

When Vinnie was at Berklee he played in a cover band at night and he was always taking it "out," (forcing it, and sort of throwing "taste" out the window) and just trying new "stuff" that he had just learned. Everyone would show up to gigs to see how out Vinnie would take stuff. It was described to me like seeing Tony Williams play with The Beatles. I'm sure that helped him when he did the same thing with Frank. It's all a process, there's really no mystery to it.

I know it sounds like a cliche', but start by applying the ideas VERY slow and always IN TIME (hopefully with a metronome.) Then just gradually geek up the tempo, until it is in the same range that you want to use it in a musical context. I like to start to use ideas with play along's or CD's before I use it with "real people." I then resort to forcing ideas in rehearsals (with warnings to my bandmates that I am trying some new stuff out,) and then relying on the fact that it will eventually seep into my subconcious and appear (mysteriously) in my playing "some day," or maybe not. But the LAST thing I want to be doing is thinking about "some lick" while I am playing.

But as was previously said, it is the same process as learning vocabulary in grade school. Learn to spell a word, learn to say it, learn it's meaning, use it in a sentence, and hopefully after that process it will "appear" in everyday conversation "eventually." Sometimes we will force new words into a conversation ("untastefully" or incorrectly,) but that happens in life and in drumming.

Finally, think about how many words that you know, that you have NEVER used in a conversation (and apply that to your drumming vocabulary.) Then think about the guy who is constantly trying to use his entire verbal vocabulary (and showing you how much he knows) in EVERY conversation, it's exhausting to talk (and listen) to that guy (most times.)

And to paraphrase Vinnie. Peanut Butter and Jelly has been around for so long because it works!!!! There is a reason it's not Peanut Butter and Mustard, or PB and Mayonaise, too much thought!!! It just doesn't work. Apply THAT idea to your drumming.

Patience young grasshopper,
Hope this helps,
Mark

[YamahaPlayer]

Finally, think about how many words that you know, that you have NEVER used in a conversation (and apply that to your drumming vocabulary.) Then think about the guy who is constantly trying to use his entire verbal vocabulary (and showing you how much he knows) in EVERY conversation, it's exhausting to talk (and listen) to that guy (most times.)

And to paraphrase Vinnie. Peanut Butter and Jelly has been around for so long because it works!!!! There is a reason it's not Peanut Butter and Mustard, or PB and Mayonaise, too much thought!!! It just doesn't work. Apply THAT idea to your drumming.

Well Said.

2 & 4 gets you paid.

[chris perra]

drumsrdrugs

For me it can take 6 months for something to actually be used well.. How often do you gig or play in a band?
If once or twice a week, that doesn't equate to very many attempts to use it.. I'm assuming once or twice a night,..

One thing I notice for me is that context is huge for applying vocabulary,.. Underlying subdivisions, and accents that the rest of the band are playing are a huge part of whether or not something fits well. Sometimes I have to change the pattern to fit the round peg in a square hole haha..

And alot of the time we'll learn a killer lick that's from fusion stuff, and I personally don't even know any fusion songs these days, and don't play anything like that style, so fitting a killer lick into rock land requires a mangling of the feel now and again.. haha

[Gaddabout]

One thing I notice for me is that context is huge for applying vocabulary,.. Underlying subdivisions, and accents that the rest of the band are playing are a huge part of whether or not something fits well. Sometimes I have to change the pattern to fit the round peg in a square hole

This is why I love the term "vocabulary" over the term "lick." A lick is something that can only be applied one way, like a proprietary car part. But having a vocabulary is like being a machinist, fabricating licks as they fit and you need them.

[Odd-Arne Oseberg]

Mainly a guitarplayer most of my life, now applying the practice concept to drums.

Something can always be further developed so I don't know what I wouold consider knowing a concept, however....


I always practice in a musical way and slow things down to where I can really hear it, feel it and understand it. Then as the internalisation process begins where I will, if it's a lick I will not just play the lick but improvise around the concept, so it will actually be musically useful. My practice time is divided into very broad stylistic and technical segments and I keep a detailed log on every aspect. I can't do everything every day, but most days I have 3-4 hours in the morning to work on stuff. The log relates to general musical ability. A new technical concept is noted and looked on at every spare moment during my day and on a pad in front of the TV ect... I don't time it. When it's developed enough to be part of my general routine, I move on to something else.

I'm only 34 and can't say I learn things slower now than before. I think my learning method is better now than it used to be. What is different though, is that I have a much broader spectrum of things I practice at the same time and my standards are lot higher since I can hear things much better than I could as a younger, less developed musician.

[Klemme]

Cjbdrm nailed it.

Also the fact that you've been playing a different instrument most of your life makes your approach playing drums different than a 14 year old teen youtubing licks and solo's 10 hours a day.

I think it's a good thing.

Be patient and Practice things you like to play! Some books can give you great tools, especially if you study them with a good teacher.

I think the most satisfying part is when you tried to nail down a lick, that you couldn't use or had the gut to execute in a live situation, and suddenly 3-4 years later it just slightly altered appears out of nowhere

[YamahaPlayer]

I like the machinist/car part analogy.

Basically, don't learn "licks" or at least, don't think of playing in that way. It's no different then how a lot of young drummers think of rudiments. You just can't think of "5 stroke roll here then paradiddle.. etc", just PLAY and let it flow.

Most the time if someone asks me what I played on a given fill or such, I have no idea. I have to listen back and transcribe it myself to know what I played, because frankly, I'm not thinking about what I'm playing, just thinking of the music and letting the expression flow.