Building Vocabulary- time frame?

[Ghostnoter]

I think one has to learn the basics of technique, rudiments, apply them in various stickings, cop from other people, internalize, dream and work it out. Billy Ward, makes a good point regarding practicing a lick at home and trying to make it happen in an actual gig...two different processes used and they aren't mutually exclusive, hence the outcome may not come out, when you want it to. I think it comes when it is ready, whatever it is you are trying to do. The music will sort of dictate it and perhaps it will come out naturally. And too, I think one has to get pass the point of being afraid of taking chances while playing in real time.
Personally, I hear things I'd like to do within the structure of a piece of music, I just keep at it, whatever the lick, groove is until I own it. 21 days, 10,000 hours or whatever; of playing it until it happens. Naturally. Or longer! Life has to come into play...live the music you are playing, dream it and envision how you would like to approach it. It (the lick) will happen!!! When you become one with who you are and your level of playing and reacting to the music, it will come...right on time. Until then, keeping working at it...

Ghostnoter

[littlegrooves]

The further removed a concept is from being musical, the harder it will be to apply it in a musical setting.

[Matus]

One thing I've found and always postulate regarding "lick learning" is that you will only be in control of it as much as you can control its simple rythmic expression.
First you have to understand things for what they really are and identiify the important aspects of whatever you're trying to incorporate into your vocabulary. Say you're learning the blushda. It's just a phrase in 3, with some grace notes within and then rythmically "smoothened". Being a phrase in 3 you can do triplets, groupings within other subdivisions... just like you would do with a simple RLL sticking. So after you get a hold of it technically speaking, you can begin to apply it in a groove context, like a fill. Then move it around the beat to try to figure out more interesting ways to play it, see where you're landing, etc.
Just simplify it as much as you can. If you take your typical 6 note linear phrase (RLRLKK) you can still think of it as a phrase in 3, just half time. Every single lick you come up with can be thought of as a simple note phrase. You must be able to listen to the actual rythmic movements you're making beneath all the sparkle of grace notes. Then you'll relly have that lick down.
So, to really answer the original question: if you have a certain degree of control over EVERY simple note phrasing from 3 to 9 and the ear to relate them to anything you play, then you're most likely to get your licks in short time. Otherwise, I suggest you put some time on that first

[willyz]

I've only briefly scanned over this thread, so forgive me if I reiterate what the other guys have already mentioned...

To start, this sort of thing is going to be different for every person, for every lick, etc. There are just too many variables to accurately figure the average time it takes to develop something.

That being said, I think what's crucial is that after you've heard this idea (or lick, whatever) in you're head for a while is that you think of context as your next step. Think about the different grooves/styles it could fit into. Think about different tempos and dynamics. It's going to work for some things and not for others... Personally, once I've internalized the idea mentally I'm going to eventually "go for it" probably on a gig... I'd much rather reach out for something and barely make it than start and back out because I'm not familiar with it... There's just something really exciting about that to me.

[patdrums]

I just had this same conversation with a student yesterday and I agree completely with nomgsmusic's analogy to vocabulary. That's exactly what licks are. The most important thing is to not actively look for a place to inject the new "word" you just learned. If you're talking to a 4 year old, you can't use words that are over their heads. You can't say "Would it be a positive experience for you to propel yourself bipedally to the pre-designated recreation area and enjoy the inertia sensation created by a chain-linked pendulum apparatus?" No, you'd get alot farther if you'd just say "Would you like to walk to the park and play on the swings?" See?

Practice the lick. Alot. You have to get it into your DNA. Change the rhythmic rate and get a grasp for how it lays over the time. Revoice it and play it different parts of the kit. Add or subtract notes and see what you get. Work on it from all of those directions and then combine different ones. You can get TONS of different things happening from one simple little silly seed of an idea. But don't worry about forcing them to come out because you'll almost always end up SOUNDING forced. It has to happen on it's own or it just won't convey the meaning your trying to express. And it will happen, eventually. You just have to let it. The process of learning it opens pathways in your technique that may not have been there before. That's good. You need that. By working on licks and fills for years, I've learned that what I've worked on doesn't always have much direct usability in musical situations. But the process of learning them has allowed me to trust my hands and my heart and let them fly in that moment. It's really cool when you go for something and you don't even know exactly what it IS until you're done playing it. I love when I do something and then think to myself "What was THAT? That came out really cool and I've never even THOUGHT of trying to do it like that before." And the ability to do that comes from spending alot of time shedding licks and then tweaking them and trying new things with them. And letting those ideas just gradually seep into my hands. Just make sure you do that stuff at home and don't try to do it on the bandstand. Keep working on it and let it happen organically. It will. You just have to be patient.

[Henry II]

I'm curious to know how long it generally takes people to add vocabulary to their playing. I've been running into a problem where I feel comfortable with a certain lick/chop in my shed, but on the gig I don't feel comfortable playing it. I feel like it takes me months to put something into my performing vocabulary..... And I'm not talking about a really difficult chop.

Any suggestions for performance retention (sounds like an add for some new pharma drug!) lol.

It seems to me that either the lick(s) you are working may not fit the music you're playing in your gig, or, you just don't "own" them enough to use them in a musical situation. My advice is not to try to force a square peg in to a round hole, or to play something your not ready to play, where, even if you pull it off, it may not enhance the music. Don't force it. When you own it, and the music calls for it, it will just happen without thought or intellectual input on your part.

[John Blackburn]

Sit down at the kit, start practicing. Dont stop till youve got it.
Thats how long it takes.
If its something close to things you already play, it will take less time (eg for me, i play this lick ALOT *too much* RLLRRL - with some feet thrown in, if i want to simply add something that modifies that phrase, like an extra RLL for example, it doesnt take long to get that together), if its something completely new (eg for me, i never do any gigs requiring a double pedal, so if i tried to learn a load of double bass madness), it would take ages longer.

Wayne Krantz answered a similar question on his site (this was a long time ago), basically he just said literally dont stop until you can do it.
I think thats why its so important to think about WHY your learning something, because thats the only way you'll stick with something for hours / days / weeks whatever with all of lifes other distractions! And music's other distractions for that matter...

Mike mangini has an inteesting take on this, found in his rhythm knowledge books, its something like an 90mins a day for 4 days a week, for three weeks. IM TOTALLY PARAPHRASING THERE, SOMEONE WITH THE BOOKS TO HAND PLEASE CORRECT ME! But hes the only person ive ever seen but a quantifyable 'time limit' on getting the stuff into your playing.

Gary Chaffee i believe has said things to students about the hours required to stay with one thing / work on its variations. Eg different ways to play one sticking or linear idea. At this point again it would be better for someone whos actually studied with him, and there are plenty on here, to chime in!
(eg, someone who actually knows what theyre talking about)

[YamahaPlayer]

Mike mangini has an inteesting take on this, found in his rhythm knowledge books, its something like an 90mins a day for 4 days a week, for three weeks. IM TOTALLY PARAPHRASING THERE, SOMEONE WITH THE BOOKS TO HAND PLEASE CORRECT ME! But hes the only person ive ever seen but a quantifyable 'time limit' on getting the stuff into your playing.

That's because it's just stupid to make blanket statements like that. Everyone is different. People all learn differently, retain information differently and recall information differently.
Odd's are that's what worked for MIKE. So he passed it on in his books. Most pysch studies have habits in humans worked out to take about 6-9weeks of daily use to become "habitual" - that's things like brushing your teeth.

We're talking about very very complex movements involving the entire body.

There are LOTS of studies that have been done on data retention, muscle memory and spontaneous execution. The general consensus is that learning is so far individual it's not possible to strictly quantify learning times, curves or methods.

There's a lot of publications on learning, how the brain retains information and all that fun stuff. Data takes time process from short term to long term in the brain, muscle memory is different as well.

Find what works for you. And remember learning a "lick" is still just a combination of various strokes on your hands (or feet) framed within given note values. If you can't play the lick, odds are you are having issues with the combination of strokes within it. Isolate each hand's rhythm and work from there.

One thing to point out. The human mind does not learn linearly. Concentrating one 1 thing for a long period of time is not nearly effective as concentrating on several things broken up into the given time period. IE, if you have 1 hour a day to work with. It's better to spend 15 minutes on 4 different things, then spend a whole hour on 1.

Additionally, because of how the mind works, it is best to learn things within a framework of reference points. Particularly with rhythm, learning something at different tempos, note values, etc - the same thing, different reference points.

The mind is ALL about references and context.

Most all though, HAVE FUN!

[Matus]

Precisely, the main and noticeable difference from one musician to another, given the same path to go from A to B (so to speak) is the ammount of time each one will need. The "goals" or time frames are always adjusted based on previous and current learning experiences.
It just doesn't hold. There are "safe ways" with no trial-error method involved to learn about everything we accquire throughout our learning life, which means that theoretically everyone should be able to play drums the same way but it doesn't work like that because of the different timings everyone needs based on his initial abilities.
Even if I and someone else are taught a new lick neither of us knew, not only it would take longer for one of us to acquire it mechanically, both would develop completely different ideas through completely different proccesses. Which is why "linear" teaching doesn't work 100%.

[Ardent15]

So...one year later. How's everyone doing with their drumming/musical vocabulary?

Being mainly a guitarist, I have found that listening to other instrumentalists-drummers, bassists, keyboardists, saxophonists, vocalists-has complemented my guitar practice, and expanded my overall musical vocabulary.

Another strategy that I have utilized, taken from Steve Vai, is to take a note on the fretboard-any note, maybe two notes-and phrase them as many ways as I can, for 20 minutes straight. When I started doing this, it took only one minute (maybe even less) for me to go through all of my "go-to" phrases. With only one or two notes to work with, and 19 minutes left in the practice session, I realized that I had to start phrasing passages and playing things in ways that I had never thought of. So that's when I started to think creatively. What also helped, however, was learning new phrases from musicians (not just guitarists, but musicians in general...)-musicians that I had never really listened to before.

I suspect a lot of you have similar routines like the one I mentioned for drumming, to get out of the "writer's bloc" (call it "player's bloc", LOL!), to move beyond the stock and cliche. If so, could you share them?