A Letter from Bob Moses to the Boston Phoenix (2001)

YamahaPlayer
Posts: 537
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:23 am

Re: A Letter from Bob Moses to the Boston Phoenix (2001)

Postby YamahaPlayer » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:48 am

Matus wrote:Even a tribute concert is something I can see as positive, but "cover bands", so to speak, are a whole different ballpark. It's mostly people who won't get anywhere by themselves and use other more talented people's work, mostly not even near as good as the original, using their name to draw people to their concerts and making a nice profit out of it, even more than any given original band 10 times better in all aspects.
It really irritates me to see these "official" cover bands going around, filling places by playing with the audience's nostalgic feelings, so I can't imagine how it feels from Moses' point of view.


I don't think any cover band has concerts. They play in bars/venues where the venue wants the energy of live music and the Top 40 selection of a jutebox that people can sing along too.

There is a very real market for cover bands, be it you agree with them philosophically or not. The proof being there are so many bars and clubs that will NOT hire original bands. In fact I would say there are easily 100x more venues that refuse to book original bands then venues that will book them.

For that matter, even live cover music is being shoved out the door for DJ's....

Talking about Jazz specifically, it's even more rare to hear original tunes. Hence the term "Standards".


And as for "won't get anywhere by themselves", if you are speaking of the music industry that's a totally bogus statement. Anyone with an inkling of how the business works knows it has very little to do with skill and a whole very lot to do with who you know. Example, who makes more money and is more famous Joey Jordison or Manu Katche?
cjbdrm
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:50 am

Re: A Letter from Bob Moses to the Boston Phoenix (2001)

Postby cjbdrm » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:30 pm

YamahaPlayer wrote:Guy's full of himself. A letter full of philosophical contradictions and written at about a low high school level.

Talking about originality like that is absurd, as if jazz music was the first music ever, didn't have it's own roots and wasn't copying previous musical ideas.
I got two words for Mr. Mosses concerning his concept of "originality" - Classical Music.

There isn't a jazz tune in the world (by any composer) that isn't borrowing heavily from classical music, and to that effect, almost all those jazz guys studied it in depth. And if you really want to get deep into it, it's still all based on Western Music theory, which is of it's own one particular Set of theory (not sure how many here know of or have studied Set theory).
It's not like any of these jazz guys were playing micro-tonal music, or using alternative sets, etc...

A bunch of old dudes with harpsichords and lutes beat us to it 100's of years ago. Least wise if you are using any progression and melody in western music theory.

*Not to say I do not love jazz music and find it very fun to play and listen to. I've just studied music history in fairly good depth and understand that the term "originality" is very much relative. These guys (jazz composers) were/are only playing with one small niche in the world of music, and it's a niche that was carved out for them, the theory established and thoroughly explored centuries before.

If someone else wants to play another composers music, and gives them credit for it, fine by me.


There's a lot more to music than just notes. And that was part of Bob's point, which you seem to have missed.

Also, you really need to work on that "disagreeing with someone without being insulting" thing...
User avatar
Matus
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:45 am
Location: Madrid (Spain)
Contact:

Re: A Letter from Bob Moses to the Boston Phoenix (2001)

Postby Matus » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:36 pm

YamahaPlayer wrote:
Matus wrote:Even a tribute concert is something I can see as positive, but "cover bands", so to speak, are a whole different ballpark. It's mostly people who won't get anywhere by themselves and use other more talented people's work, mostly not even near as good as the original, using their name to draw people to their concerts and making a nice profit out of it, even more than any given original band 10 times better in all aspects.
It really irritates me to see these "official" cover bands going around, filling places by playing with the audience's nostalgic feelings, so I can't imagine how it feels from Moses' point of view.


I don't think any cover band has concerts. They play in bars/venues where the venue wants the energy of live music and the Top 40 selection of a jutebox that people can sing along too.

There is a very real market for cover bands, be it you agree with them philosophically or not. The proof being there are so many bars and clubs that will NOT hire original bands. In fact I would say there are easily 100x more venues that refuse to book original bands then venues that will book them.

For that matter, even live cover music is being shoved out the door for DJ's....

Talking about Jazz specifically, it's even more rare to hear original tunes. Hence the term "Standards".


And as for "won't get anywhere by themselves", if you are speaking of the music industry that's a totally bogus statement. Anyone with an inkling of how the business works knows it has very little to do with skill and a whole very lot to do with who you know. Example, who makes more money and is more famous Joey Jordison or Manu Katche?


We're obviously talking about two different local/national scenes. Should have specified about that, sorry.
Around here I see three different kinds of cover bands. The most common one is as you said, bar/club oriented and with musicians ranging from fairly decent to really good ones. They're there to entertain people and that's cool. Then you got groups of pro musicians who get together every once in a while and perform concerts covering a certain band, still in clubs (I'm putting one together myself). But then there's one specific sort who even acquire the imagery of the original and get to perform at the same venues as a fairly big rock act would. With ads on radio, web and whatnot. I've even played a massive fest with 30000 people attending that had those kind of bands featured. It's nuts, because they often display poor musicianship, which to me is a lack of respect in the first place. They're making a profit on someone else's legacy and doing it poorly but they still get the attention because they're using that name. And since the music scene is in the death row here, they're actually getting in the way of other people who are working their asses off to try to make a living.
The most insane thing I've witnessed so far is this:
http://www.letzzep.com/
They were advertised just like any other prime act coming to town and they're a damn cover band! Same thing with some british dudes doing Genesis.
What I mean is, cover bands are just fine where they belong. Taking them to another level is nuts. And I know it's not their fault, but at least they could show some respect for the music, which I rarely see at these shows.

About the topic at hand, I still think Bob Moses really went too far with such stuff as "enemies". I just see where the guy is coming from, his motivations are partly legitimate to me, but not the manners. Hardest stuff I've read since the Metheny/Kenny G incident.
facebook.com/carlosexpositooficial
instagram.com/carlosexposito
Gaddabout
Posts: 499
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:21 pm

Re: A Letter from Bob Moses to the Boston Phoenix (2001)

Postby Gaddabout » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:55 pm

Matus wrote:About the topic at hand, I still think Bob Moses really went too far with such stuff as "enemies". I just see where the guy is coming from, his motivations are partly legitimate to me, but not the manners. Hardest stuff I've read since the Metheny/Kenny G incident.


Oh, I was totally with Metheny on that one. Kenny G wasn't just playing someone else's music, he was stealing a legend's literal performance.

Imagine in 30 years someone taking your words and your good name on a post in this forum and posting on a different forum with their own words intermixed, using them in an entirely different context, and possibly a context you would never have approved.

I've got no copyright on an philosophy I might share here, but I think I have a God-given right to own my name and my words to not be used without my approval out of context. I feel the same way about music, especially a genre as intensely personal and emotional as jazz.
“Let's try some of my songs.” Dave Grohl, top sign drummer will be fired.
User avatar
bclarkio
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:22 pm
Location: Third Stone from the Sun

Re: A Letter from Bob Moses to the Boston Phoenix (2001)

Postby bclarkio » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:54 pm

BrOliveira wrote:As much as I understand that he really knew the work and life of Mingus, and he's disappointed that someone does not make justice to what it is that he knows so well... it just doesn't give him the right to make such Godlike statements. Everyone sees the world differently, everyone expresses themselves differently, who is he to approve or disapprove something in ABSOLUTE terms, just because he BELIEVES it doesn't make justice to the artist that created it. He can have his opinion, just like we all do. I understand what it is he doesn't like about tribute or cover bands, but that's only his opinion. If there's a crowd for it, there will be someone exploring that path. It's not like Mr. Merenda's killing someone. He's just playing music he really loves, although I agree on not using the name of the composer to attract people. Did I read the word ENEMY?
I'm sorry, but the only word that came to my mind reading that, is Fundamentalism.


That's kind of the feeling I came away with.

I would prefer to associate Music with Freedom rather than Religion.
User avatar
Matus
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:45 am
Location: Madrid (Spain)
Contact:

Re: A Letter from Bob Moses to the Boston Phoenix (2001)

Postby Matus » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:28 am

Gaddabout wrote:
Matus wrote:About the topic at hand, I still think Bob Moses really went too far with such stuff as "enemies". I just see where the guy is coming from, his motivations are partly legitimate to me, but not the manners. Hardest stuff I've read since the Metheny/Kenny G incident.


Oh, I was totally with Metheny on that one. Kenny G wasn't just playing someone else's music, he was stealing a legend's literal performance.

Imagine in 30 years someone taking your words and your good name on a post in this forum and posting on a different forum with their own words intermixed, using them in an entirely different context, and possibly a context you would never have approved.

I've got no copyright on an philosophy I might share here, but I think I have a God-given right to own my name and my words to not be used without my approval out of context. I feel the same way about music, especially a genre as intensely personal and emotional as jazz.


I was with him as well, it just struck me that he got public with sentences like "shitting in their graves" (if I remember well).
facebook.com/carlosexpositooficial
instagram.com/carlosexposito
Yussuf
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:36 pm

Re: A Letter from Bob Moses to the Boston Phoenix (2001)

Postby Yussuf » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:15 am

Interesting read.. I can somehow relate to some of Bob's thoughts here despite all the weird afterlife stuff and general hostility. Still thoughtprovoking and we need views like this in the midst of all the LOLs and OMGs.
I agree with Bob on the "Branford plays Love Supreme". That thing seemed just unnecessary and maybe even a bit arrogant from mr. Marsalis.
Thanks for the link DSOP.
User avatar
Steve Holmes
Site Admin
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:15 am

Re: A Letter from Bob Moses to the Boston Phoenix (2001)

Postby Steve Holmes » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:12 pm

Wow, great read. I need to check out some Bob stuff.
littlegrooves
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:16 am

Re: A Letter from Bob Moses to the Boston Phoenix (2001)

Postby littlegrooves » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:25 am

Bob Moses is so full of sh*t that I can smell him through my computer screen.

Is here actually serious with comments like this one:

"[...] or bass players who think it's okay to play Jaco's licks verbatim, albeit without the soul, groove or power of the original."

With all due respect (or not, considering Bob doesn't show much), who the hell does he think he is? Guess what Bob, it IS okay for bass players to rip Jaco's licks all they want. Hmm... maybe Bob means to say that it is okay to rip someone's licks off as long as they do it skillfully? As far as I am concerned, let someone do a lame Jaco impersonation. After all, it is their reputation that is going to suffer if they are seen as fakes who can't fake it right and are unoriginal. But again, who is Bob freakin' Moses to be the mighty protector of legacies? I believe that Mingus and Trane are doing just fine without him.

Bob sums it up pretty well by saying "because you like something doesn't make it yours." Exactly, Bob. Just because you like something and are better at playing someone's music, and you "get it" more than someone else, doesn't mean you have more of a right to play it than they do. It just means that you are better at it and you understand it.

If I wanna go grab my sticks and do a suck-a** Elvin rip, then that's my reputation on the line. Oh, and not to mention it is also my choice. From Bob's point of view, I haven't "earned the rights" to play those notes yet. As far as I am concerned, that attitude is more offensive than anything I, or anyone else, could possibly play.
DSOP
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:35 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: A Letter from Bob Moses to the Boston Phoenix (2001)

Postby DSOP » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:10 am

Steve Holmes wrote:Wow, great read. I need to check out some Bob stuff.


Start here: http://download799.mediafire.com/zubvih ... wisdom.pdf

Return to “Drumming Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 65 guests