Interesting stuff RE music biz from Scott H

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deseipel
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Re: Interesting stuff RE music biz from Scott H

Postby deseipel » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:56 am

langmick wrote:What I see are a bunch of guys wanting things to be a certain way that they think it was in the past.


To a certain degree, sure. Things were much easier. You bought a CD and that was that.

langmick wrote:If you go into music trying make a living you are facing a tough road, and it has always been that way. Music is for rich kids. It is a possibility that because of the internet, more people are selling music than before, and that because this is so, there is the same money going around for more musicians.


Making money playing music has more to do with your talent and who you know than how much money you have.

The same money going around? Are you serious? Show me the money! Where'd it go? 27 Million album sales vs. 4 million. What happened to 23 million people? This ought to be good.



What I hear are people rationalizing theft. period. I hear people disassociating musicians from music. Thieves don't care about the person they steal from, that would make it too personal.


The industry is changing, yes. It's not like it used to be. In some ways its harder to make money being an original artist; in some ways it's easier. The Internet has developed into a global equalizer; enabling anyone to put out an album and anyone to steal that album. It's clear to me that the model of the past isn't going to work, but giving away music for free is just fucking stupid imo. One thing hasn't changed: stealing is still stealing no matter how much shit you throw at that fan.
amoergosum
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Re: Interesting stuff RE music biz from Scott H

Postby amoergosum » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:17 am

chris perra wrote:Great story of how an A&R guy who loved a Blues artist,, wanted to make him the next Clapton,, couldn't because the label cut back on everything but garbage crap music...



Doyle Bramhall II....yeaaaaaaaah! >>>





Gerry
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Re: Interesting stuff RE music biz from Scott H

Postby Gerry » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:43 am

The internet has changed things forever. So, different business models apply and artists have to be more canny in order to make money: we all have to do things differently now.

Trying to turn things back is laughable. Turn things back to when? To the 1910s/20s/30s/40s when artists didn't receive any royalties whatsoever, but instead were paid a flat fee for the recording session? In those days, records were considered a promotional tool to get better paid gigs. And in a way, things have come full circle because that's what Rock’s aristocracy have been doing for the past few years. Most of them make a loss on the album, but use it to get bums on seats, then clean up on the merchandising and ticket sales.

So, when it comes to the artist making money from recorded music, were talking about a 'blip' from the 50s until the end of the 90s. Even then, despite companies playing fairer, plenty of artists still got hosed when it came to royalties. And as far as jazz/minority music goes, I question why so many of you are getting het up about things. Are any of you making millions from royalties? Are your fusion/jazz heroes making millions? Record pressings used to be in the thousands (not even tens of thousands) so the internet has broadened horizons for many artists. Apart from a handful who had universal appeal and global success, the majority of jazz artists I used to see in the 80s and 90s recorded albums, once more, as a promotional tool to get better paid gigs/tours. So, things never changed for them. Did you ever talk to these guys after gigs? Attend workshops and ask questions about the business side of things? I did. I can't have been the only one.

So how to make money in this day and age? Trying to sell music to the masses is a waste of time. Those days are over. Make money by playing live, through sponsorship or subscribed album releases where online patrons pay a small amounts to support their favourite artist and when enough money is raised, the album is released. 18th century classical composers made used to do something similar with concerts/music events. And why not sell t-shirts instead of the music? It's made Mick Jagger millions...if it's beneath you to do that, try working 9-5 in a factory every day. Feel any better?

I don't have all the answers, but crying over spilt milk is a waste of time.

P.S. Allan Holdsworth has been threatening to throw in the towel since the year dot. He's a depressive. He may not know that, but f*ck me, if you've ever been in the same room/pub as him, it's written all over him...
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Re: Interesting stuff RE music biz from Scott H

Postby DSOP » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:50 am

langmick wrote:And DSOP you are a dick, you want to physically attack someone over this, that was a pretty provocative post. Do you make your living through music? I don't think you do, Trio of Stridence...I guess you're a pretty hard guy to be in a band with if you're threatening people all the time.

Internet tough guy...


I would never hit/hurt/attack anyone. I was trying make a point. Suggesting that I would hurt someone is insane. Just like suggesting that stealing music is okay is insane.

Do I make a living playing the drums? No, not anymore, but what does that have to do with it? Does that mean I have no right to be irate when fucktards go on and on about "the new normal" or spew such ignorance like I see in this thread?

Am I a hard guy to be in a band with? Most definitely. But that's only because I refuse to compromise when it comes to music. This is a big part of the reason I don't earn my living off of music anymore. I'm not going to be a martyr.

But I have many friends who DO survive solely from music, and I see where it's all leading.

Every year I see more and more horrible musicians playing "music" in live situations, and they can barely tune their instruments let alone get a decent sound out of them. This wasn't the case years ago. Music is devolving and has lost its value to everyone under the age of 35. It will only get worse as less people will be able to devote their undivided attention to music full-time.

Technology is not to blame. Morality is to blame. Having access to more and more music instantly should be a good thing. Being able to purchase only one or two songs instead of a whole record/album/cd should be a good thing. Being able to sample part of a song to see if you like it and it's worth buying should be a good thing.

Stealing music is never a good thing,is always illegal and should always be punished.
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Re: Interesting stuff RE music biz from Scott H

Postby DSOP » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:00 am

Gerry wrote:And as far as jazz/minority music goes, I question why so many of you are getting het up about things. Are any of you making millions from royalties? Are your fusion/jazz heroes making millions? Record pressings used to be in the thousands (not even tens of thousands) so the internet has broadened horizons for many artists. Apart from a handful who had universal appeal and global success, the majority of jazz artists I used to see in the 80s and 90s recorded albums, once more, as a promotional tool to get better paid gigs/tours. So, things never changed for them. Did you ever talk to these guys after gigs? Attend workshops and ask questions about the business side of things? I did. I can't have been the only one.


Please, if you want to spew a bunch crap like that, please back it up with specific examples. And who said anything about "making millions"? Most people just want to earn a comfortable living wage. Did you even read what Scott Henderson said in his post?

If you're stealing music, you're breaking the law, never mind the fact that you're HURTING MUSICIANS LIVELIHOODS.
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Re: Interesting stuff RE music biz from Scott H

Postby Gerry » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:15 pm

DSOP wrote:
Gerry wrote:And as far as jazz/minority music goes, I question why so many of you are getting het up about things. Are any of you making millions from royalties? Are your fusion/jazz heroes making millions? Record pressings used to be in the thousands (not even tens of thousands) so the internet has broadened horizons for many artists. Apart from a handful who had universal appeal and global success, the majority of jazz artists I used to see in the 80s and 90s recorded albums, once more, as a promotional tool to get better paid gigs/tours. So, things never changed for them. Did you ever talk to these guys after gigs? Attend workshops and ask questions about the business side of things? I did. I can't have been the only one.


Please, if you want to spew a bunch crap like that, please back it up with specific examples. And who said anything about "making millions"? Most people just want to earn a comfortable living wage. Did you even read what Scott Henderson said in his post?

If you're stealing music, you're breaking the law, never mind the fact that you're HURTING MUSICIANS LIVELIHOODS.


Firstly, I don't steal music. I listen to music totally legally online for free, I don't need to steal it. I also buy music, but not as much as I used to.

Secondly, I did read Scott Henderson's post. Whether he/you/I like it or not, the current generation expect music for free. That has to be factored into any new business model. No point whining about how things used to be. Those days are gone. There are alternatives/new ways of making money. I see them all the time. Medeski Martin and Wood recently ran a subscription for an online workshop and concert, for example.

When I studied music we had people coming in all the time to talk about the industry. I also had dealings (not business) with a guy who ran a jazz/blues record label. He now runs festivals. PM me if you want to know who (I doubt you'll ever have heard of him). Doesn't make me an expert, but it was an eye opener. Granted, record sales formed/form part of the income for a lot of jazz musicians, but for many - especially the lesser known names - records were leverage that helped to form a fan base/establish a reputation, which helped them get gigs. Historically, that's the way it used to be (read any autobiography of jazz guys who lived through the 20s/30s/40s). We seem to have returned to those times (and for many it's always been like that).

Incidentally, did you ever make a tape of something when you were a teenager?
Perhaps recorded a song from the radio?
Did you ever make a tape for a friend?
Tape of a record you borrowed...perhaps from a library?
Ever watched a yootoob vid that violates copyright? (someone uploaded an old video they made of a TV special).

If the answer to any of the above is yes, then reach for that loaded revolver in the desk, place it to your temple and...hang on, perhaps this isn't so black and white? Hmm...I did all the above. I don't consider myself a thief and I do support artists I like.
DSOP
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Re: Interesting stuff RE music biz from Scott H

Postby DSOP » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:38 pm

Gerry wrote:Incidentally, did you ever make a tape of something when you were a teenager?
Perhaps recorded a song from the radio?
Did you ever make a tape for a friend?
Tape of a record you borrowed...perhaps from a library?
Ever watched a yootoob vid that violates copyright? (someone uploaded an old video they made of a TV special).


No. I did make my own mix-tapes of records I already own though. And analog cassette recordings hardly compete with the fidelity of digital copies which are IDENTICAL copies. If I ever borrowed a record from a friend and liked it, I would buy my own copy, because I cared about fidelity. As for YouTube, when I see something that is obviously violating copyright, I notify them.

Am I perfect? No. But I obviously do my best to play fair.

The problem of illegal file sharing and copying will be dealt with sooner or later. I guarantee it.
Last edited by DSOP on Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dccollins
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Re: Interesting stuff RE music biz from Scott H

Postby dccollins » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:28 pm

Chris Perra has it right. Radio, tours are all sponsored. By advertisers. Corporations will pay insane amounts of money to have the populous see their logo or ad.

The record companies have lost control of this aspect. They can't capitalize (monetarily) on a system that gives the power to the users (computer based music aquisition, legal and illegal). They needed you to hear about the show on the radio (ad), go to the record store (itunes store) where there may be info about the band or a tour, buy the album (itunes store), and listen (on the radio) for the band's tour to come near you (ad), and go see them.

Well listening to the radio is waaay down (ipod through the car stereo), and not many people are buying albums at a brick and mortar store(itunes). We do still see live shows, but I find out about them on the internet.

So, I think his argument about the music industry trying to hold on to a dying model is very true. And yes, DSOP can be a dick once on a while. . . been there seen that in the old forum.
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Kurtis
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Re: Interesting stuff RE music biz from Scott H

Postby Kurtis » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:53 pm

Image

there will always be pirates. aarrrrr

i think the best bet is to go through the ISP as far as catching the uploader and downloaders. once they start catching people by the thousands there will be millions paying fines and taking up lots of space in jails for file sharing. people will loose their homes, cars you name it. college students will be non nonexistent cause they download the most. the fines are out of this world. everyone knows about the woman who downloaded 25 songs illegally and was fined 800 grand via RIAA. her kids did it not her. still her fault. the fine is fare. yeah really fare huh. they can fine as much as they want cause they can. they can take all of the file sharers and fine them thousands per song and bankrupt them and put them in jail. that is what the RIAA and MPAA want. it might put a pretty good dent in society also. where did everyone go and why isn't anyone buy anything. cause they are in jail or dead broke paying the RIAA and their layers money. even if someone taps into your router and downloads whatever on your IP address it's still your fault even though if was secured or not. lots of hackers out there. i read this stuff on DIGG all the time. what ever the system that is implemented they needs to have balance and be realistic. fine people but not at insane costs. no 2 grand per song. some people out there have gigs of illegal stuff. maybe even teras.

it just seems so futile. lets just fast forward a few thousands years. human civilization will be dwindling. maybe just a 600 million on the planet if that. i don't think anyone will be caring about stealing music. there will still be thieves, killers and the like around. life on the earth will come and go until the sun starts to burn up it's energy and then swallow up this rock (earth) along with mercury and venus then poof. good times ahead. why. cause no one will be stealing shit then.
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Re: Interesting stuff RE music biz from Scott H

Postby Steve Holmes » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:59 pm

*Timeout*
Can we please refrain from slinging insults and physically threatening each other? Thanks.
*Time in*

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