Revealing Simultaneous Relationship in Time

[Kurtis]

Where is Ralph Humphrey when you need him. He could resolve this in a matter of seconds. Really, seconds.

[DSOP]

Sometimes I put a little piece of tape on the batter head of my snare drum, but most of the time, nothing.

[Mark Levine]

Hey Lucas,

Thank you for taking the time to write a comment.

Revealing these relationships in time, is a part of what actually occurs, when awesome brilliant drummers are on fire, inspired, and improvising. In my opinion, Master drummers play motifs, (or shorter rhythmic patterns), within longer phrases, (phrase marks), crossing barlines, and all of it, is related to different note notations of pulse, (speed relationships).

Whether someone alone is inspired, or with an inspired musical context, the mentioned relationships all happen in a moment in time, causing an emotional reaction to what is being heard and felt. It all occurs simultaneously. A very detailed multiplex of hierarchal relationships, all happening at the same time.

What can be done with it, is inspire the up and coming generation of drumming geniuses to innovate.

I believe the simultaneous relationships occurring in real time, (always being HEARD when anybody plays), should be revealed. This revelation can help one to internalize, because it accurately connects the ear to the sight.

Truth matters. Master drummers play motifs and great rhythmic phrases. I want to see a phrase mark, identifying groups, and a sequence of notes as a unified idea of shape and musical form. Not just a sequence of rambling notes without any connection to a musical expression.

I hear brilliant drummers play phrases and talk about phrases in interviews. Do you ever see phrase marks in drum books?
It is not about re-thinking notation that makes sense to me.

Its about the "greats", who present their super analytic thinking to the ear of the hearer. Whether they understand the underlying numerical codes behind all of it doesn't matter in a playing/hearing context. However, in a visual context, stepping on that visual artistic performance stage, should be to reveal the corresponding relationships in time, that their innovative playing brings to the listeners ear.

[chris perra]

O.k. I get it.. makes sense that if you play 6 groups of fives.. over a pulse you get 30 notes. and if you accent every 6th note of the fives you get 5 over 6 in relation to the first of each of the 5's..

I was just confused with the choice of 8th notes and 32nd notes as they don't fit subdivision wise..


cool idea.. cool way of working out 5 over 6..

[Mark Levine]

Hey Chris,

You understand the 5 evenly spaced in the time of 6. (5:6) Thats awesome.

A little insight into the notation. The notation i am using is accurate and here is why. Check out the following :

As you know, One 8th note divides into two 16th notes. The two 16th notes divide into two 32nd note triplets. 1 2 3 1 2 3.
A 32nd note triplet can be called 3rd values with a 32nd note notation.
Not 32nd notes, but 3rd values with a 32nd note notation. That is how an 8th note divides into 1 2 3 1 2 3 or six.

Any Triplet can be thought of as Third values.

The other option is :
An 8th note divided into a 16th note triplet. (1 2 3 can be thought of as 3rd values with a 16th note notation).
Divide every 1 2 3 into number groups of 1 2 1 2 1 2.

The Different number group produce a different feel. You can hear it by counting. Accent 1 of 123123. Accent 1 of 121212.

Note that i am not just choosing any grouping that adds up to six.
123123 comes from dividing two 16th notes (a 16th note duplet). 121212 comes from dividing a 16th note triplet.

That is how the 8th note can divide into six notes using a 32nd Notation. NOT 32ND NOTES.

I think you said in an earlier post a dotted 8th note divides into six 32nd notes. That is correct.
A dotted 8th note divides into three 16th notes, and therefore, a dotted 8th note divides into six 32nd notes.


All the best, Mark

[chris perra]

I still don't get it..

If using 32nd note triplets.. there would be 36 in a bar of 6/8 not 30.
36 doesn't divide equally into 5..

Everything you have stated makes sense to me except the notation representation of the subdivision of the groups of 5 over the eighth note..
It would be an oddball subdivision, not 32nds or 32nd note triplets, but 5 in the space of an eighth note.. or 40th notes if in 4/4 time haha...

And the "8th notes" in the 5 over 6 polyrhythm would be a value of 6 40th notes as opposed to 6 32nd notes or 32nd note triplets...
I have no idea how to notate that...


What do you mean by any triplet can be though of 3rd values?
To me triplets are of 3 in the space of 1.. Some people think they are groups of 3 in the space of 2.. either is fine if the 2 are twice as fast as the 1..

[Jim Richman]

Hey Chris,

You understand the 5 evenly spaced in the time of 6. (5:6) Thats awesome.

A little insight into the notation. The notation i am using is accurate and here is why. Check out the following :

As you know, One 8th note divides into two 16th notes. The two 16th notes divide into two 32nd note triplets. 1 2 3 1 2 3.
A 32nd note triplet can be called 3rd values with a 32nd note notation.
Not 32nd notes, but 3rd values with a 32nd note notation. That is how an 8th note divides into 1 2 3 1 2 3 or six.

Any Triplet can be thought of as Third values.

The other option is :
An 8th note divided into a 16th note triplet. (1 2 3 can be thought of as 3rd values with a 16th note notation).
Divide every 1 2 3 into number groups of 1 2 1 2 1 2.

The Different number group produce a different feel. You can hear it by counting. Accent 1 of 123123. Accent 1 of 121212.

Note that i am not just choosing any grouping that adds up to six.
123123 comes from dividing two 16th notes (a 16th note duplet). 121212 comes from dividing a 16th note triplet.

That is how the 8th note can divide into six notes using a 32nd Notation. NOT 32ND NOTES.

I think you said in an earlier post a dotted 8th note divides into six 32nd notes. That is correct.
A dotted 8th note divides into three 16th notes, and therefore, a dotted 8th note divides into six 32nd notes.


All the best, Mark

Your notation is not accurate, cause if it was, you would not need to explain how to subdivide 1/8th notes into 16ths.

[Mark Levine]

I still don't get it..

If using 32nd note triplets.. there would be 36 in a bar of 6/8 not 30.
36 doesn't divide equally into 5..

Everything you have stated makes sense to me except the notation representation of the subdivision of the groups of 5 over the eighth note..
It would be an oddball subdivision, not 32nds or 32nd note triplets, but 5 in the space of an eighth note.. or 40th notes if in 4/4 time haha...

And the "8th notes" in the 5 over 6 polyrhythm would be a value of 6 40th notes as opposed to 6 32nd notes or 32nd note triplets...
I have no idea how to notate that...


What do you mean by any triplet can be though of 3rd values?
To me triplets are of 3 in the space of 1.. Some people think they are groups of 3 in the space of 2.. either is fine if the 2 are twice as fast as the 1..

Chris,
The 32nd note triplets are the division of the (5). That = 30

(5:6) The 5 and 6 are separate speeds. They both can be divided into triplets.
The 36 you are referencing are the division of the 6 eighth notes. You need to reference the (5) divided into trips. 5X6 =30.

A triplet = 1 2 3. 1 = 1/3 of the triplet. 2 = 2/3 of the triplet. 3 = 3/3. (they are individual 1/3 values in a group0.

[chris perra]

Makes sense.. but if you are in 6/8 time.. it would be 5 notes in the space of each eighth note. Not 6 32nd triplets..
If you were in 5/8 time It would work..

You can't be in 5/8 time and 6/8 time simultaneously... I get what you're saying... notation/subdivision wise it's confusing though..
You can have 30 notes be subdivided into 2 pulse groups which give you 5 over 6.. but using 32nd trips not relating to the 6/8 time signature is confusing.. And having 5 8th notes evenly occur in the same space as 6/8th notes is counter intuitive to the idea of having a time signature of 6/8..

To me a time signature is a measurement of a section of space that is a certain distance apart.. then it gets cut up into different subdivisions..
All based on 4/4 time..
From that, we get 8th notes,.. an 8th note is a certain distance apart.. so if you have a time signature of 6/8 time..From the beginning of the bar to the end of the bar you can fit 6 8th notes in it..

If you put only five notes in a bar of 6/8 they can't be 8th notes.. because each one is a bit longer than an 8th note..

I suppose they are 6 32nd note triplets each in a bar of 5/8 time.. Or 6 notes of a poly rhythm of 5 over 1 using an 8th note as 1 in 6/8 time..

Any way thanks for the clarification.. Cool idea.. I'd never come up with that myself..

[Mark Levine]

Makes sense.. but if you are in 6/8 time.. it would be 5 notes in the space of each eighth note. Not 6 32nd triplets..
If you were in 5/8 time It would work..

You can't be in 5/8 time and 6/8 time simultaneously... I get what you're saying... notation/subdivision wise it's confusing though..
You can have 30 notes be subdivided into 2 pulse groups which give you 5 over 6.. but using 32nd trips not relating to the 6/8 time signature is confusing.. And having 5 8th notes evenly occur in the same space as 6/8th notes is counter intuitive to the idea of having a time signature of 6/8..

To me a time signature is a measurement of a section of space that is a certain distance apart.. then it gets cut up into different subdivisions..
All based on 4/4 time..
From that, we get 8th notes,.. an 8th note is a certain distance apart.. so if you have a time signature of 6/8 time..From the beginning of the bar to the end of the bar you can fit 6 8th notes in it..

If you put only five notes in a bar of 6/8 they can't be 8th notes.. because each one is a bit longer than an 8th note..

I suppose they are 6 32nd note triplets each in a bar of 5/8 time.. Or 6 notes of a poly rhythm of 5 over 1 using an 8th note as 1 in 6/8 time..

Any way thanks for the clarification.. Cool idea.. I'd never come up with that myself..

Chris,
The (5) can be thought of as 5th values with an 8th note notation. Five (5th values) evenly spaced in the time of (6) 8ths.

Be careful with the absolute statement "You can't be in 5/8 time and 6/8 time simultaneously". All things are possible.
You can have simutaneously meter - 8th notes (of 5/8 and 6/8) moving at the same rate of speed, with a barline after every fifth 8th note (of the 5/8) creating a cycle. You can have a meter moving on the speed of an outside ratio.

Outside ratios are a momentum sustained through suspending rhythms. They are not bound by the restraints of a meter, but they can exist within a meter format.

I have in one of the ebooks i composed, (Hands of Fire (not released yet), a file that shows 3/4 meter cycling over 4/4 meter, by moving on the speeds of 3:2. 3 quarter notes evenly spaced over 2 dotted quarter notes, all within 4/4 meter, as it crosses the barlines of 4/4 measures. The rhythm being played is 32nd notes and 16th note quintuplets.
This type of rhythmic activity would be used in a metric modulation from a quarter note, or half note pulse to a dotted quarter note pulse in 4/4 meter.

Because of the words that i use, and the concepts put forth, i want to say this.
Contrary to some opinions voiced by a few people, who think they know and don't know they don't know,

Every file posted at this forum by me, from the Revealing the underlying Numerical Code, The Anatomy of an Interdimensional Rhythm (The Poly metric/rhythm 5 stroke roll on continuous 8th notes), the 6 ebooks to be released, are all composed by playing everything in a musical context. Feeling it first, (hearing it), and then the intellect is used in the notation of it (seeing it). Never the other way around.

What i do is reveal the hidden relationships in time, that occur inside inspired emotion when drummers play by feel .