What separates the truly great from the merely skilled?

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gretsch-o-rama
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Re: What separates the truly great from the merely skilled?

Postby gretsch-o-rama » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:17 am

willyz wrote:Well, I did list talent.

I think looping in a name like Tony in your post is a bit rambunctious. Tony was a prodigy, and of course it was his talent that got him those gigs at such a young age.

But this day in age (and this goes off topic a bit), such raw talent probably isn't enough any more. Mike Johnson is more of a 'name' than say, Gergo Borlai, even though he can run circles around Johnson in every aspect of the instrument. Being in a in a certain market, how much you whore yourself out, how gullible people are, and how much media is available, etc, are all much more important than talent today.



How about we just don't talk about Mike Johnston on this board? AT ALL. haha Thanks
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percusski
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Re: What separates the truly great from the merely skilled?

Postby percusski » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:38 am

I wish I could get my marketing shit together like MJ etc...some are natural self promoters...
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gretsch-o-rama
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Re: What separates the truly great from the merely skilled?

Postby gretsch-o-rama » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:14 am

CAN'T. CONTAIN. DRUMMER. HATE. SPEECH. HAHAHAHAHA
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Re: What separates the truly great from the merely skilled?

Postby Rodge » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:03 am

percusski wrote:I wish I could get my marketing shit together like MJ etc...some are natural self promoters...


I don't know any great musicians good at self promotion, they are too busy thinking about the music...
I come from Tain, Vinnie, Omar, Jeff, Fish, Stewart, and many more...
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beat hit
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Re: What separates the truly great from the merely skilled?

Postby beat hit » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:44 pm

Rodge wrote:
percusski wrote:I wish I could get my marketing shit together like MJ etc...some are natural self promoters...


I don't know any great musicians good at self promotion, they are too busy thinking about the music...


Really?? Dave Weckl is an example of a great musician who always marketed himself very very well...
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Re: What separates the truly great from the merely skilled?

Postby Rodge » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:32 am

How ? Dave sucks online, and that's fine, he doesn't have to be online, he's busy.

We know Dave because he's a GREAT musician, not because he plays great drums and he post his shit on Youtube...

Now maybe you talk about his DVD's and all this kind of stuff ?
As I said, first he came by the music, not only by his great drumming.
I come from Tain, Vinnie, Omar, Jeff, Fish, Stewart, and many more...
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Re: What separates the truly great from the merely skilled?

Postby Matthijs Ament » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:07 am

The original question was: what is the difference between truly great drummers and the 'very good'?. So, music-wise. Not ;who makes the most bucks [Ringo Starr, Lars Ulrich, Charlie Watts, Larry Mullen] or who is the busiest [Vinnie, Keltner etc] or the most famous [Phil Collins, Don Henley, Dave Grohl] or the most successful self-made youtoobe drummers with 'himwhoshallnotbenamed'…;-]
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beat hit
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Re: What separates the truly great from the merely skilled?

Postby beat hit » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:17 am

Rodge wrote:How ? Dave sucks online, and that's fine, he doesn't have to be online, he's busy.

We know Dave because he's a GREAT musician, not because he plays great drums and he post his shit on Youtube...

Now maybe you talk about his DVD's and all this kind of stuff ?
As I said, first he came by the music, not only by his great drumming.


My comment is simply directed at your statement: "I don't know any great musicians good at self promotion, they are too busy thinking about the music...".

Maybe if you further define/narrow down what you mean by "self-promotion", I'd have a better idea of what you mean...

Yes, I am talking about his "MD Sound Supplement" back in the 80's, his videos starting from "back to basic", his website, his pledge music project... That's Dave promoting himself. Peter Erskine did a good job at that to a certain degree too... That's all self-promotion of various kinds. Maybe Dave is not on Facebook but he's one of the best at self-promoting and he happens to be a great musician and NO he's not great because of his self-promotion flare...

And I do agree that a lot of great musicians are very poor with the business aspect of music... Promotion being one of them...
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Paul Marangoni
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Re: What separates the truly great from the merely skilled?

Postby Paul Marangoni » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:37 am

Steph, you're forgetting that it's not Dave or Peter doing that promotion, but it's Steve Orkin doing it FOR those guys (as well as for Steve Smith, and others). Rodge is correct. The truly great drummers don't think about the promotional side of things. It's not because they don't want to promote themselves and get more work, but it's because they're busy making music and to make really great music, you must give it your all. To do really great promotion that reaches many people and gets traction, you have to give THAT your full attention. This is why the drummers who are everywhere on YouTube and Facebook are usually mediocre at best.
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Re: What separates the truly great from the merely skilled?

Postby bensdrums » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:41 am

Paul Marangoni wrote:This is why the drummers who are everywhere on YouTube and Facebook are usually mediocre at best.


I think this is true to a degree. But I've also seen some highly skilled youtube guys that do some great stuff, and have picked up things from them. I didn't find out about Steve Holmes or Louie Palmer by buying records and checking them out. I found them online, and they both post vids of their playing often (although Steve not as often as before but that's cool too). They both also play with what I would consider to be a fairly high degree of musicianship... not just skill.

I think it can also be a trap for a player to spend a lot of time trying to sort out topics like this in their heads. "Am I truly great or merely skilled?" Who cares? Get out there and practice and play music with people. If you find satisfaction with it, keep doing it as your life allows you to. If you love it enough, you'll find ways to make more time for it and chase excellence, however that might be. Don't worry about whether you're going to be great or not or whether you'll just be "skilled"... and for that matter, don't worry about whether or not anybody else is. If it makes you happy, if you get a certain sense of creative or artistic stimulation from it, chances are you'll keep working at it. If you're overly (I said overly, so I'm not saying anybody here is an idiot, okay? This IS a good discussion topic!) worried about what separates great from skilled and things like that, you might be getting distracted.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good forum topic and generates some good discussion as to the difference between greatness and skill. It's good to be aware that there is a difference and there is always room to grow as a musician. I just think that we are all likely to define greatness differently at different points in our own musical development so we're dealing with a sliding scale at the outset of a conversation like this. I think we decide for ourselves what greatness means to us and find our own paths to pursue it.

So what separates the greatness and skill to me, at this point in my life; are commitment, desire, a healthy dose of creative curiosity, and enough humility to constantly grow. The word talent has a role in this too, but it depends on how you define it. In my mind, talent is a level of natural aptitude towards something. In varying degrees, it plays a role in how fast we're able to learn and assimilate knowledge or skills (inputs) and translate them creatively (outputs). Everybody has to put the time in. It's just that some guys can move faster through the development and engage more complex knowledge and skill faster. A person can have a ton of talent for something but no commitment or desire towards it, but a person can also have little talent but a ton of commitment and desire and reach a level where they can make meaningful music for many as well.

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