3 stages of learning to play the drums

[john lamb]

Hey - I just happened on a new way of explaining what to practice to students, at least in general.

http://drumlessonsportland.com/the-3-es ... the-drums/

I am pretty sure I'm simplying to much, but I'm having trouble thinking of things that don't fall into these categories. the only thing I can find is 'knowing how to interact with other people i.e. knowing who you are playing with, and how they will react to what you play, and the audience, too.

I'd love for people to point out more weak points in the argument! (gloves off!) Thanks!

[YamahaPlayer]

Umm man that is some pretty bad writing, just the grammatical issues alone are staggering. Read it out loud and you'll catch a lot of that hopefully.

Try and refine what you are trying to get across, elaborate on your concepts in a clear and concise manor.

Gotta clean up that writing there though, that's almost unreadable.


As to what I could gleam from what you have, some of that is intertwined. I doubt someone will be able to "listen" and understand what they are hearing without already having the mechanical understanding developed.
It seems like you are striking at the concept of 'If you can sing it, you can play it', which is an axon of truth for most (maybe all?) instruments.

Maslow proposed the 4 stages of learning, and it's pretty generally accepted stuff. Applying to almost all areas of learn (Instruments included). They are Unconscious Incompetence, Conscious Incompetence, Conscious Competence and Unconscious Competence in that order. Check that stuff out, Maslow was pretty friggin cool.

There is also the Dreyfus model of (skill)acquisition, also very cool stuff. Check that out too among other pretty heavy research into learning.

[john lamb]

Thanks for the response - I edited the grammar. It started out as a note to myself, but I ended up posting it, partly because I have about 75 posts started but not completed!

I am not trying to describe what stage anyone is at. Instead, I'm trying to submit a tool people can use to use their time more effectively. Hopefully what I wrote is a bit more clear, but it's kinda hard for me to explain with an article. If I were to make a mind-map of it, I would draw a building whose sides leaned on each other. You can be able to play something without being able to hear it (for example: Buddy Rich trying to play Rock), you can hear something without being able to play it, and you can hear it and have the technical ability, but if you aren't in the right state of mind, it won't come out.

[DSOP]

http://www.stevekhan.com/destination_arrival.htm

[YamahaPlayer]

That is a great read ( I think it was posted before?)


It seems to take so many years for most students to internalize the concept of simplicity turned into complexity, that I think trying to define a particular instruments "phases" of learning may be an exercise in futility.

Maslow and the like called it pretty much on the dot. You can try and simplify what they were saying, but in the end you're just going to run into the same basic "phases" of learning. Until they invent that cool matrix probe in the brain learning thing...

It's ALL about qualitative repetition.

Few move out of the mechanical phase of learning. Particularly for an instrument based so much on muscle memory and physical technique.

Even fewer more to the conceptual phase of learning.

Fewer still to the "unconscious competence" stage - pure second nature, reactionary, fluent in the language, etc

In my experience, for the average drum set player (or marching for that matter) it takes about 10 solid years of playing with instruction to break out of the "beginner" category.

Point in case, I bet if you took a survey (some how?) of all the drummers who walked into a drum shop, guitar center, etc, you would find a shocking amount of them can't read, have even a basic understanding of rhythmic theory or basic rhythmic elements.

I like what Bruce Lee said about Martial Arts and belts. "Belts are good for holding up your pants."

[Gaddabout]

I thought it went something like this:

1. You know it all.

2. There's challenging things out there, but you think you've almost heard it all

3. You know nothing

[YamahaPlayer]

4. I give up

[john lamb]

All due respect, thats nowhere close to what I'm trying to say. I don't use the term phase (at least, I hope not) or stage. In fact, I pretty much loathe most use of stages. I don't even sit well with Piaget. I know there's something to it, but I have my criticisms, with the usefullness of such stages being chiefly among them.. They are practically worthless. They are, at best, an adjective.

I'm trying to describe a verb. A tool that students can use to direct their practice better. The Steve Khan piece is more in like with what I'm talking about, falling in the "Steering" category. Steering, in particular, is a category that is left untouched by nearly every book, save a few, such as Effortless Mastery and The Music Lesson. And even in those, there are very few specifics. There are lots of really useful, very specific, very teachable things you can do - tools for your trick bag - to deal with stage fright. But they almost never get taught or even talked about. Khan's description of hearing the interview is one of those tricks. A lot of people have that same story, or some variation on it. Remembering that experience is a tool you can use. Something you can use to steer.

FYI, I have a degree in Psych, Bio and Music, and I'm closing in on a Masters in Ed.

[Rene]

With a background in teaching, the "how to learn the drums" or narrowing it down to specific rhythms, techniques, timig etc. if find this a really interesting question. I want share you my thoughts on your first post. My feedback is meant constructively and in no way I want to offend you.

You could see the new breed as an approach to learn in(ter)dependence and timing and Maria Martinez book on Afro-Cuban drumming to learn the rhythms and partially the culture behind. But not one of these learn how to play drums entirely and require different approaches to learn the material in those books. I tried to conceptualize drumming and organize my practice routine by that concept.

Now getting to my first observation is that your articles have lack of focus and some points are as I believe "not sound". They do not follow Piaget's theorie . Step 1, Figuring out the notes requires analytical skills, i.e. abstract behaviour. My first teacher played the jazz swing puls until I could play it along with him and refused to put in on paper. On the previous HOD forum there was a post and link to another website on the Art of practice. That article drew the relation between analytical skills vs learning by listening and mimicking, and how those two relate to how our brain are wired. That article addressed some essential components, which I think you're missing.

Some parts of your two articles are too abstract. (Maybe it's because English is not my native language). If you would like to reach your own students and/ or not a specific audience, write in a way that is understandable for all ages. We often here use term "sesame street level" ...... I also miss guidance some practical guidance on how should student could apply it (the three components) in reaching a specific goal?

Another observation:

- the name of the topic is the three stages of learining .....
- the link leads to the article entitled: three essential components ......
- the article ends with al link to three steps ......

Focus?.... getting my point? (or again english is not my native language, maybe that's why I'm missing the point ....)

Your article "three essential components" resembles a bit of "my concept" on drumming. Is split my practice routine in the following components,

- technique (e.g. stick control / bass drum control)
- in(ter)dependence (new breed)
- rhytmical / timing in(ter)depence (grouping, polyrhythms, e.g. Gary Chaffee Rhythm & meter book)
- Rhythms / grooves in a muscial context
- Understanding the culture (dutch drummer and "left foot clave specialist" Lucas van Merwijk spent some time in Cuba, playing in the streets of Havana with the locals......
- Learning proces, setting goals

To conclude, with respect to the latter, I strongy believe that learning fast single strokes (see recent post on this subject) needs a different approach than learning the left foot clave .....


Of course i'm open for critics as well

Rene

Lucas, the LFC starts after two minutes ..

[john lamb]

Thanks for your reply, Rene. Don't worry I'm quite thick skinned. I greatly appreciate your feedback as well. (You too YamahaPlayer!)

I just realized before reading your post that the title of this thread is the "3 Stages" and I am quite embarrassed! Thats a mistake on my part. Really not what I meant to say. I don't have the right term for what I'm trying to say, though. I don't mean to convey the idea that you start at one place and move on. I mean to convey that they are component parts.

I would like to hear more about what you mean in terms of splitting up analytical thinking with sound thinking. I've read the Art of Practicing, and I have my own ideas about it, but I would like to hear yours. IMHO, I think that it is useful to have analytical tools in one's toolbox, and tools to help leave the overthinking behind. I know some great great players that go out of their way to never analyze anything. However, I don't think we can really avoid it. The very basis of sound discrimination is based on analysis. Most of Music is based on how things relate - to the Pusle, to the Tonal Center, etc. The "Left Brained" analysis tools simply add on to what has already been done. They construct a story for it. If the story is accurate, it can further a player's performance ability, if they know when and how to ditch it. If its innaccurate, it simply interferes. What are your thoughts on this? (Please, don't be afraid to disagree!!)


As far as the 3 Steps article, I believe there are those steps. I qualify it right at the beginning, but you have to know what you want to do before you can do it, and you have to be able to do it before it gets done. It is a kind of no-brainer, but I have found it really helps focus student's attention on what they are missing instead of repeating something they already know/do well. This allows them to advance more quickly than they otherwise would.

I know what you mean about Sesame Street language. I'm trying to figure something out there.