Grip question

[john lamb]

The whole point about grip and hand position is that your forearm muscles are involved in everything that happens from your elbow down, so if your hand is adopting a certain position you're putting tension on certain muscles, which should be free to propel your wrist movements.

You mean upper arm muscles are involved in everything from the elbow down.

The forearm muscles are finger + wrist muscles, muscles + have no action on the forearm itself. The upper arm muscles are elbow muscles, tasked with bending the elbow and thus moving the forearm. The back+chest muscles are upper arm muscles. If you see someone's forearm moving, then it is because of the upper arm muscles working. When you see the elbow pumping motion of the Moeller technique its because you are using your chest and back muscles to move your upper arm.

Under no circumstances should you think of any part of the arm moving by itself. Every motion, no matter how small, should be supported by the entire arm structure leading to the spine. This is how we are naturally built, and people who move really naturally - pro dancers, athletes, etc all do this very very VERY well.

Case in point. 1 minute in.

The announcer says "It really is all in the wrist" Yet you can clearly see Mike's forearms doing a LOT of moving, and his upper arms weaving back and forth as well. In order to achieve those speeds, Mike is employing his whole body naturally and effectively. Another example is this blake griffith dunk. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggRqdvU6yJ8 You can see his whole body move in unison, not in separate parts.

Unfortunately, many people hear and repeat "its all in the wrist". And what many people end up doing is to try their darndest to lock the elbow in place while they practice. They tighten down their own muscles to lock something that needs to move. That means they push and pull the same joint at the same time, causing a great deal of tiredness and unnecessary stress to the joint. This ends up causing a lot of damage.

Incidentally, I can back all of this up with research. Msg if your interested in learning more. Repetitive motion injuries are somewhat of a passion of mine, and I've been studying them for years now.

[Josiah]

there are so many diferent yet equal ways of playing drumset - trad vs matced, the variations on matched, variations on trad, everything below the shoulder, or above, or angled in, or away, enough players have demonstrated that you can just destroy a kit with any and all variations that studying the human anatomy is just useless for playing drums.

relax, play, experiment to find what works for you, and go with it. from german, to french, to trad, it's all different and all totally usable.


mike is not a good example. or at least is a specific, which doesn't ever work for a general. i'll take vinnie's technique over his any day which is very different and well, who's got the better sound and chops? just saying.

[Matus]

You mean upper arm muscles are involved in everything from the elbow down.

Actually I meant the same as you. AFAIK, from the elbow down all you can move is wrist and fingers
We're pretty much on the same page but I'd stress that the "it's all in the wrist" line should always be detailed, as no stress or tension should be put on any other part of the arm, but relaxation so any derivate arm movements can be done effectively. And of course we're talking strict single stroke, non accented, snare technique here, which should be adapted and transferred to other applications..

[Morgenthaler]

I'm constantly trying to evaluate my grip since I've experienced elbow issues, but what I'm wondering is:

I've heard lots of folks say that the butt end of the stick should go down the center of the palm


And

Do not let the butt end stick out the side of your palm.


What I've noticed is that my grip seems to allowt butt end to stick out the side of my palm. Not extremely, but it's definitely not down the center of my palm, as recommended by others. What I haven't heard explained is Why? Why does it have to go down the center of the palm?

What's the benefit? Aren't all hands different?

Butt out or Butt in?

Yup, all hands are different and there is no 1 true universal way you could/should hold your stick.
What I see in both your pix is that you hold the stick quite a long way towards the end. In that grip you are minimizing
the rebound (the stick doing work for you) quite dramatically.

That butt in or butt out question does not have a onesided answer.
Most times I think you are better off letting it butt out, so it won't hit your arm.
But some times it will do just that if you are reaching for a floor tom or cymbal placed far from you.
Don't worry too much about that.

I know Vinnie was mentioned, but just because you grip your stick like him, doesn't mean you'll play
like him.

Actually from an objective point, I think Manginis grip is far superior. It lets you work at quite a high performance level
while not giving you any problems with your joints. I haven't practiced that grip myself, since I am fairly comfortable with
my somewhat German grip and never had any health issues with it (even when practicing 3-4 hours a day at some point)

French grip never made sense to me. Very few players master it on a drumset. Cobham for example. It fits timpani playing much better.

Then there's Si-Phi's teacup grip which always baffled me. How he gets work done with it is beyond me, but it works for him.

My main rule of thumb: Be sure to let the stick do as much work for you as possible.

[Josiah]

Actually from an objective point, I think Manginis grip is far superior. It lets you work at quite a high performance level
while not giving you any problems with your joints.

how are you gauging superior? surely you wouldn't say that mike, great as he is, is anywhere near vinnie's level of playing? or weckl, or buddy, all of which use trad and a very different right hand.

you mentioned billy, who is known to use trad on both hands, wild.

[Morgenthaler]

Actually from an objective point, I think Manginis grip is far superior. It lets you work at quite a high performance level
while not giving you any problems with your joints.

how are you gauging superior? surely you wouldn't say that mike, great as he is, is anywhere near vinnie's level of playing? or weckl, or buddy, all of which use trad and a very different right hand.

you mentioned billy, who is known to use trad on both hands, wild.

Well, since you can't measure art, you have to look at what you can measure. Manigini's hands are lightening fast and able to pull of hours
of playing each day without health issues. You can't argue that someone's "level of playing" just is better than the next guy. That's just
taste, which is subjective/personal in any case. From a purely mechanical standpoint, which is what this thread is about, Mangini's grip makes
the most sense.

[john lamb]

Then I msunderstood

your forearm muscles are involved in everything that happens from your elbow down,

to include elbow flexion and rotation, which are caused by upper arm muscles sich as the biceps/triceps/brachialis and the aconeous , respectively. Glad to know we are on the same page. I was shocked at how much movement below the elbow is caused by upper arm muscles, personally, and the discovery has deeply affected my playing for the better.

[john lamb]

there are so many diferent yet equal ways of playing drumset - trad vs matced, the variations on matched, variations on trad, everything below the shoulder, or above, or angled in, or away, enough players have demonstrated that you can just destroy a kit with any and all variations that studying the human anatomy is just useless for playing drums.

Some players can destroy a kit, but the kit can also destroy the player. Look at Phil Collins.

There really are so many equal and different ways to play the drums. But that does not mean that any way you want to hit the drums is equal. This is clearly not the case. To argue from absurdity, try playing the drums with straight, locked elbows. This makes no sense. Other techniques clearly are easier and more effective, delicate, powerful, and less hurtful. Less absurd, try deadsticking everything, or setting your throne 20" off the ground. Someone may be able to kill the drums from that low vantage point, but their knees will pay the price.

However, I really want to point out that your advice is fundamentally very very sound, and we are really on the same page. IF YOU LISTEN TO WHAT YOUR BODY SAYS, then you will discover good, healthy technique on your own. Eventually. The problem is that people often tend to ignore what their are feeling in favor of what they are thinking. We write off pain as 'just the muscles getting used to it' or a myriad of other excuses. Its a shame. I'm on a personal crusade to stop it.

A study of anatomy in particular can be really really useful, and I can PILE peer reviewed research on you to prove it - from music to prenatal care to chronic low back pain. It is a hopping field right now, and there's a lot of really interesting stuff going on. I'm actually conducting some research on musicians right now. The idea is that people move according to how they think their body is built. I'm piggybacking on a pile of research from the British Medical Journal and many others, specifically focusing on concert pianists (for now)

So while the way you advocate is utterly invaluable, there are other tools that can also be really valuable. And not all techniques are even. This is Jojo Mayers whole point for making in his Secret Weapons video, btw.