Stick Choice and Rebound

[littlegrooves]

The stick needs proportionally more mass toward the front in order to rebound well.

I'm not quite sure if this is correct, if you mean "front" to be the bead. If one wants a stick that readily rebounds, then you want more mass on the other side of the fulcrum, opposite the bead-end of the stick. This is a simple matter of leverage. To illustrate this with a thought experiment, if you were to add a weight to your stick, where do you intuitively feel that it would 1.) help your rebound the most, 2.) hurt your rebound the most?

[gretsch-o-rama]

The stick needs proportionally more mass toward the front in order to rebound well.

I'm not quite sure if this is correct, if you mean "front" to be the bead. If one wants a stick that readily rebounds, then you want more mass on the other side of the fulcrum, opposite the bead-end of the stick. This is a simple matter of leverage. To illustrate this with a thought experiment, if you were to add a weight to your stick, where do you intuitively feel that it would 1.) help your rebound the most, 2.) hurt your rebound the most?

This was mainly what I was talking about and my experience is that a short taper(more weight up front ) does not necessarily guarantee more rebound. Take the Tony Williams stick for example, it's about a 2b with a real short taper...not a lot of rebound there. The Z Cindy Blackman stick is kind of long for it's diameter with a medium taper and not a whole lot of rebound there. The Harvey Mason stick is cool but haven't tried it in a while...

I would say that weight at the front does feel better with traditional grip... look at the Vinnie, Weckl, and Carlock stick. But Im talking about pure rebound...

[deseipel]

I'd agree that there's an optimum balance point, which facilitates rebound. But more weight in the front or back of the stick would change that balance point, or fulcrum.

I think when people use the word 'mass', what they really mean is weight. the drum stick's ability to rebound (assuming you utilize the fulcrum point) is relative to it's weight and the amount of force you apply; and the surface you hit.


A heavier stick appears to rebound more because it has more weight. this assumes that you hit the same surface and apply the same force (and use the fulcrum).

That said, I agree that different sticks appear to rebound differently, but this is where 'different hands' come in to play.

I wish someone invented a device to measure how hard you hit the drum. Or Mythbusters should use their high speed camera to measure the optimum force or velocity that a drummer needs to achieve optimum rebound.

I'm guessing it's not much, and therefore the key is learning how to manipulate rebound, not getting rebound itself.

[Matus]

I really encourage you guys to find someone who can provide you with custom sticks. It might be even cheaper than the sticks you usually buy at stores and you'll get exactly what you need. I found a brand who really made my dream drumstick and I've never gone back. Even declined endorsement deals (meaning a number of free pairs a year) from other brands because I'm so happy with the results of having my own thing.
I'll try to get some pics and analyze how we designed the stick to get the best results.

[Morgenthaler]

the key is learning how to manipulate rebound, not getting rebound itself.

Very well put.

I practice a lot with the Vater Shedder sticks. They have a great rebound and that rebound is easy to manipulate/control.
I prefer playing with Vater Powerhouse and in general I feel that a beefier stick means having much more control over
the rebound. A lighter, thinner stick might create a very easy buzzroll , but to control the rebound from it is hard.

Here's the somewhat related short video I posted recently regarding my grip:
(I am using Vater Shedder in this clip)

[Jim Richman]

Recently I've become perhaps unsatisfied with my stick choice in regards to rebound and inertia. For at least a year I've been obsessed with integrating a rebound "approach" into my playing and until now have been unsuccessful. My problems before were that when I felt I was trying to "embrace" the rebound I would lose a little control and feel. (which are vitally important) So, to me, I was trying to find some middle ground between the "Gruber" approach and perhaps VC, who has said in clinics that he uses a lot of rebound.( and doesn't really hold the sticks close to the middle like what Gruber teaches, and I don't know why he teaches that)

What I've discovered is that by letting the weight of the stick sit in my hand(and as a consequence, relax the hands) the stick rebounds quite naturally and reverberates as well. (all the things Gruber talks about) This might seem weird but If I focus on letting the stick feel as heavy as possible, I can notice no difference between embracing rebound and not using rebound. Not only that, but I notice an overall improvement in sound and feel.

One of the consequences of this new found "approach" is that I'm much more aware of what each different stick feels like, how it responds, and how well it rebounds. I've used the Vinnie Colaiuta stick for almost 7 years and what I like a lot about it is that it has a really aggressive sound(from what I've noticed). However, it does not rebound the most for me of the sticks I currently own. What I've found is that a lot of drum corps sticks have a massive amount of rebound(I'm guessing it's the extra mass) and ironically the original Dave Weckl stick has a lot as well. I'm looking forward to going to the drum shop to try out new sticks to see what I can come up with... Anyway, do you have any ideas on what factors make a stick rebound? Length, taper, tip, and diameter? I think I'm looking for a drum set stick that rebounds a lot and I'm not against any brand, wood, type, etc...

Nice topic, but I think the real answer lies in what you are playing. Are you playing something musical? Or are you praying something. Wanting the sticks to work for you is not right. You need to work the sticks. Play fast slow loud soft. You are doing it all, not the sticks. Stick rebound is a byproduct of striking a drum, not the main event.

[Lucas Ives]

The stick needs proportionally more mass toward the front in order to rebound well.

I'm not quite sure if this is correct, if you mean "front" to be the bead. If one wants a stick that readily rebounds, then you want more mass on the other side of the fulcrum, opposite the bead-end of the stick. This is a simple matter of leverage. To illustrate this with a thought experiment, if you were to add a weight to your stick, where do you intuitively feel that it would 1.) help your rebound the most, 2.) hurt your rebound the most?

1.) The bead end. 2.) The butt end.

It may seem counter-intuitive at first, but looking at it through the lens of Newton's 2nd (F=ma) and 3rd (equal/opposite reaction) laws may make more sense. If you're really bored, you can duct-tape some quarters to the back and then the front and execute some free strokes, or as deseipel suggests, just slide your grip up and down the stick. Rebound gets a lot more difficult a lot more quickly moving the fulcrum up toward the front.

You don't have to take my word for it, either. Greb, Weckl, and Mayer all espouse the same thing in their clinics and instructional products.

[Josiah]

^ is very true.

Wanting the sticks to work for you is not right. You need to work the sticks. Play fast slow loud soft. You are doing it all, not the sticks.
Stick rebound is a byproduct of striking a drum, not the main event.

i'd have to disagree on behalf of well, everyone. the quote "let the sticks do the work for you" has been uttered by the who's who and grand masters of the instrument in some form or another through out our drum set history.


it's a package deal, the object is obviously making music. but you are not doing it all, not by a long shot. from the rebound in the drum heads, to the tone produced by the stick, to your technique and of course your ideas.

besides there is no way in the world you are going to play anything requiring multiple notes per stick without letting it rebound and working with it, coaxing as much out of it and learning to control the movement.

if you dead stick everything, you'll eliminate 99% of what is possible to play. including all manor of rolls, doubles, buzzes, etc


rebound is the byproduct of technique. the technique of playing relaxed and letting the stick do it's thing. learning to draw the sound out of the drums is entirely about allowing the stick to get off the head as fast as it can - which it does on it's own. you are simply there to catch it as it comes up and divert it to the next task.

a lot of this is seen in a much clearer light when you get into the marching realm, because of the heavier weight sticks and much harder playing surfaces the requirement of letting the stick absorb the vibrations created becomes a lot more important. drum set surfaces are very soft and forgiving in comparison.
additionally the speeds and complexity of phrases require the ability to control the rebound, and let the stick do it's thing.

interesting as well, sticking with snare drum for the moment, play at considerably faster tempos with far more complex phrasing then what you see on a drum set. in addition to much younger players doing it.
leading me to believe that the physics of what is occurring has a LOT to do with what you are able to do, meaning that a great deal of it is our of our hands.

[Old Pit Guy]

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[piccupstix]

..the key is learning how to manipulate rebound, not getting rebound itself.

I also agree with this. A great portion of my practicing of late is spent trying to better control the rebound. Through listening to recordings of my playing I can hear a flow-killing uneven space between notes in my ride hand. I think it's exaggerated if I get caught up in playing harder. I'm trying to get that flow back in my playing and I think it's all in rebound manipulation (and not over-thinking and getting in my own way :/)

Another thing I've noticed is some drummers are obviously using rebound with a very loose grip, fingers flying on and off, while other drummers seem to have a very neat and tidy grip and are probably still basically using the rebound. Then there is a guy like Jeff Porcaro who appears to be muscling every note he plays (think of his "I Keep Forgetting" 16th notes) And to keep the stick size subject going, Jeff did use pretty lightweight sticks. My current fave is the Vic Firth Peter Erskine Ride Stick.