Seeking Justice for Musicians in Jazz Clubs

[Lucas Ives]

re: marquee places in NYC, you're about right with your ticket price. Beers are $7-8, drinks are about $5 more. And keep in mind that most of them are at least 2 sets per night, separate tickets to each show. So double your number. But they're also employing a host, 5-10 wait staff, kitchen, etc.

It's a tough formula/hustle on all sides. Taking your example of The Iridium: as far as I can tell, it makes most of its money as a tourist trap during the day with singing waiters doing Katy Perry and Broadway covers to feed its jazz habit at night. Les Paul used to bring in folks on Mondays, but now there's no artist in residence.

[circh bustom]

On paper it's per set. Ive never been charged by the set.
I don't think you can look at this situation without addressing club overhead. The club owner deserves to make a decent wage comparable to the amount of work involved. Even the toughest gigs do not compare to running a club, especially a club that also serves food. Unless you, as a musician, rent out the venue, as a whole for the night, you need to work with the venue hand in hand. According to Lucas even the clubs have day jobs, haha. I still don't think the clubs should have to bend and change with the times but the musicians are not. I too dream of one day owning a venue. My wife is an amazing chef, and we want to combine our loves and try and have the best of both worlds. I still have not figured out how we will pay the musicians.

[DSOP]

What if the club installed a few cameras and streamed the show live to paying viewers? Smalls streams stuff for free, but the view is limited and it's hardly high quality audio or video. Maybe charge $5 per hour to view? Partner with a technology company to get the equipment installed and then share in the revenue. Show ads between songs. Offer viewing of previous events. Eventually you've got a big catalog of stuff that people can stream to their television for a monthly fee?

[Josiah]

$100 a night, is 13 + hours of work at min wage. So I'm not sure how they are looking at comparisons in pay.

And Union wise, union rates are pretty high. That's definitely not "sub standard" pay. Tthere is only so much money to go around - if these particular musicians want more, where will it come from?

Times are changing, jazz isn't nearly as popular as it once was. That's just a fact of life. You adapt or get bulldozed.

I love playing jazz gigs, but other styles pay much better. In the end, it's the consumer who ultimately defines the market.

Nothing to do with "justice" here, everyone is a volunteer musician.

[Gaddabout]

If I were attempting to kill jazz entirely in NYC, I would propose these kinds of things. Jazz clubs essentially offer jazz because the owner has an emotional attachment to the genre and/or the musicians who play it. No one is rushing to open a jazz club because they think it will turn a tidy profit. Or even a dirty profit. Thin on profit of any kind, really. It's a great way to lose money on something you love, though. Force even more money out of my pocket to book this kind of music, and I'll just do something else and go watch my jazz friends play for free at the park.

The market has spoken. Jazz lost.

[circh bustom]

Josiah, while I am one of the few who usually agree with you, the $100 for 13+ hours of minimum wage work is a little out there. Im sorry, but the roughest gigs Ive had have not even held a candle to when i was roofing in 12 degree weather with a 3 degree wind chill. Nor does it compare to my current position managing a movie theater, which can be more work than you would think. Working a convenience store for minimum wage, perpetuating the grind I can understand hhrrummphing 1004 for 13 hours. But you are going to pay me 1004 for playing my drums, and im including expenses, gas tolls etc, where i live a 100$ gig nets me 75$ and that is with most likely driving 45 minutes each way. On a freinds facebook page, as we speak is a similar discussion about clubs and the demise of the scene. Granted, said discussion isn't centered on jazz, but how many of us on this forum only do gigs in one genre? Some of the clubs/bars down here renegg on the agreed amount of $$ at the end of the night because the place was empty. Now I see both sides of this argument, as a working musician, and from the perspective of someday owning a club/restaurant. As a musician you were guaranteed X amount of dollars for playing, showing up on time, not getting into a fight blah blah blah. What about the expectation of the club owner that you have people who want to hear you play? I have always thought that I was expected to hold up my end of the bargain in bringing in people. Some clubs do have a built in crowd down here, but we are talking 15 people a night maximum. me personally, ive been in bands that for whatever reason have not drawn well on certain nights. when the club owner comes over halfway thru the night and say" look, not alot of people showed up. how about you end early and i'll knock 100$ off the pay?" Why would i not work with that person? that owner will remember me as a musician that was flexible instead of " we agreed on such and such and that is what im getting" Im amazed at how many times the latter statement takes place. i have played a good number of venues all over the country, of all shaopes and sizes, and to this day i still consider it a priviledge, not a right. Some years Ive made more playing the drums than I have ever made doing anything else. Doesn't mean I should have that forever. gaddabout in his last post put into better terms what I said in my first post. he always seems to have a way of doing that. Untill the people who have the money to spend start to spend it on jazz, it is what it is.

[Josiah]

What do you mean?

I was just going with the min wage in this state - $7.65/hour which is roughly 13 hours to get $100. True there are taxes, but most people making min wage get all their taxes back one way or the other. In NY it's $7.25/hour.Musicians in NYC aren't making less then a busboy.

If you make even $50 for a few hours of playing music, you're doing better then the kid cleaning the table.

I don't understand the argument that you have to drive, pay for gas, etc - because everyone does.

Travel and time are universal. People who work "normal" jobs don't just magically transport there, they have to drive to their jobs as well, pay for gas, take the time to get ready, etc A 1 hour commute is fairly normal in major cities, no matter what your job is. most jobs make people buy their uniforms be it a company uniform or dress code, bankers don't get a "suit allowance".

Additionally as a self employed I can deduct my expenses, something you can't do for a "normal" job. I'm deducting some new cymbals, sticks, gas, mileage, et

It's unfortunate that Jazz is dying, but it is what it is. There's nothing that says these guys can't take other gigs. Do I like playing weddings? No. But I still get to play drums and make some good coin.

[matthughen]

The market has spoken. Jazz lost.

... no, wait ... ...

Awesome, Matt!

[Riddim]

I don't expect musicians to necessarily work for free but we aren't talking about roofing. Or surgery. It's playing music. It's really a hobby.

A hobby in the sense that it's hard to make a living at it?

[Riddim]

What if the club installed a few cameras and streamed the show live to paying viewers? Smalls streams stuff for free, but the view is limited and it's hardly high quality audio or video. Maybe charge $5 per hour to view? Partner with a technology company to get the equipment installed and then share in the revenue. Show ads between songs. Offer viewing of previous events. Eventually you've got a big catalog of stuff that people can stream to their television for a monthly fee?

I like the idea.